If you click on my category "e-mail is forever" you will see another "dear john" letter to my donor. We were just talking about this on another board. When you make the decision to break away, what do you say? (I am a poet and didn't know it).
I found another "dear john" letter to my donor as follows:
No harm has been done, I just didn't want any lasting "confusion" to be on my part at all. If you are unclear on my reasons, I wanted to reiterate what they were again.
I know how it feels to hurt over these familial problems. I was quite hurt (when my request to let this house sale be a non-problem was not honored by either of you. I was further hurt when you both insisted on revisiting it, knowing that Robert's mom was dying. It was pretty crushing to me, because although I believed you both to be selfish and controlling, I thought in the end that my plea to be left alone during this extremely painful portion of me and Rob's life would be respected. Not only did you both bother him during a stressful time (he won't say this but I will), but you made this selling of our personal property so much more than that. It didn't need to be. I am sorry the other e-mails hurt you, but I wanted you to know this was not the only incident that was making me feel completely disrespected and uncared for. It would have been pretty bad even if this was the only incident.
I had never meant to tell either of you these things, as the past is the past. I am not going to change the person you are, or who Betty Ann is. It would be an exercise in futility, but I can control how I allow myself to be treated and what my boundaries are. There is no denying that. I have gone through enough pain about this in my life.
Finally, you furthered the hurt by not allowing us to just work on our relationship, but again insisting on jamming Betty Ann down my throat as you did 18 years ago. I should have never given in to you then, and we would either be beyond this point now, or we wouldn't have talked since. And I further take responsibility for repairing the breach with Betty Ann when her mother died. I gave her the idea that she could still do this, but she used to be a lot more subtle about it.
Parents during estrangement say "I didn't know this, therefore it's your fault". According to the above, to an extent that is true. However, just because you don't know that someone doesn't like to be verbally and emotionally abused does not mean that you have the right to continue to do that. Also, when I stood up for myself in the past, you made my life miserable, and the only way I have been able to cope for the last 18 years is to make as few waves as possible. I also don't like to be the B word that Betty Ann is very comfortable being. It doesn't make for nice relationships for me, and these are relationships I shouldn't have to fight that hard for. I know because I have them and other people have them, it is quite possible to disagree; respect anothers wishes, respect their different beliefs, respect their different values, and still love them (through actions not words) as a cherished family members.
Until this incident, I have treated both of you as cherished family members. Both of your disrespect, not subsequent e-mails, has hurt me deeply and caused a relationship with you to be impossible for me. If at some point, you can see this "condition" that you demand is not acceptable, we may be able to talk (I realize this would require you to make an unselfish act on your part). As is, please do not contact me again.
I accept your apology below. I am going to work on my business again now, and continue enjoying the life and people in it that I am lucky to have, and show me the same.
Robin
Showing posts with label E Mail is Forever. Show all posts
Showing posts with label E Mail is Forever. Show all posts
Tuesday, August 12, 2008
Tuesday, April 11, 2006
Final E-Mails
To Tony in response to following post:
You very well know that Robert also expressed BA shouldn't be brought up to me if you are going to hide behind my husband.And you could let me know you are going to honor that boundary in an e-mail without talking to me.That is obvious, and I shouldn't even have to state it. But then you had to get the last matyred word in.Robin
From Tony in Response to Following Post:
Robin,In my last communication with Robert, way back when this all came to a head, he advised me to do what is in my heart. I have, I've apologized. I can't do more than that, because I can't speak with you. I've done what is in my heart and you've done what is in your. You won't hear from me again, I love you and if you ever want to talk I'll be happy to talk with you. I only wish you and Robert the best
To Dad in Response to Below Apology:
Dad
I don't think it's nice not to respond to an apology. So in short, I wish I could accept the words below. I can't though, as they don't mesh with your actions.There are instances when you have known you were hurting me, and kept on doing it, especially in recent events, and not done what was needed to be done not to hurt me. I do understand this may not be deliberate, but that's not exactly comforting either. At least if it was deliberate, you would know the things you were doing were inappropriate.I do really need to spend time now on my growing business, marketing, taking care of my clients. We are at a known impass anyway, and any further discussion is an exercise that won't get either of us anywhere.I wish you well. I do thank you for the below thought. Please respect my wishes not to be contacted unless you can respect my boundaries. It's my fault this discussion has gone on for responding in the first place. I am sorry for that, and so I won't be responding again.Robert and I are well, and enjoying our life in Maine.Robin
Apology offered by Tony:
Its hard writing to you about how I feel and having you put a spin on it that was never intended.A. I wasn't the father I should have been to you during the divorce and during my remarriage.B. If I've done things to hurt you, and I have, I'm sorry.C. I'm not perfect, far from it. But, I'm not a person who would hurt you deliberately. I should have known what I was doing and I didn't. If you had told me what is was doing was hurting you I would have tried to fix it. We'll never know. My fault I hurt you, I take responsibility.Thats as clear as I can get. I hope that you can accept my apology.Dad
You very well know that Robert also expressed BA shouldn't be brought up to me if you are going to hide behind my husband.And you could let me know you are going to honor that boundary in an e-mail without talking to me.That is obvious, and I shouldn't even have to state it. But then you had to get the last matyred word in.Robin
From Tony in Response to Following Post:
Robin,In my last communication with Robert, way back when this all came to a head, he advised me to do what is in my heart. I have, I've apologized. I can't do more than that, because I can't speak with you. I've done what is in my heart and you've done what is in your. You won't hear from me again, I love you and if you ever want to talk I'll be happy to talk with you. I only wish you and Robert the best
To Dad in Response to Below Apology:
Dad
I don't think it's nice not to respond to an apology. So in short, I wish I could accept the words below. I can't though, as they don't mesh with your actions.There are instances when you have known you were hurting me, and kept on doing it, especially in recent events, and not done what was needed to be done not to hurt me. I do understand this may not be deliberate, but that's not exactly comforting either. At least if it was deliberate, you would know the things you were doing were inappropriate.I do really need to spend time now on my growing business, marketing, taking care of my clients. We are at a known impass anyway, and any further discussion is an exercise that won't get either of us anywhere.I wish you well. I do thank you for the below thought. Please respect my wishes not to be contacted unless you can respect my boundaries. It's my fault this discussion has gone on for responding in the first place. I am sorry for that, and so I won't be responding again.Robert and I are well, and enjoying our life in Maine.Robin
Apology offered by Tony:
Its hard writing to you about how I feel and having you put a spin on it that was never intended.A. I wasn't the father I should have been to you during the divorce and during my remarriage.B. If I've done things to hurt you, and I have, I'm sorry.C. I'm not perfect, far from it. But, I'm not a person who would hurt you deliberately. I should have known what I was doing and I didn't. If you had told me what is was doing was hurting you I would have tried to fix it. We'll never know. My fault I hurt you, I take responsibility.Thats as clear as I can get. I hope that you can accept my apology.Dad
Thursday, April 06, 2006
Tony's Weak Excuse
Response to Tony's Post Below:
Two points to clear up here:
"I guess I was really afraid to be closer because of what happened between you and your mother. I would alway tell her that you would set the limits of our relationship because I had done such a poor job of protecting you during the divorce. "
Robert was in the hospital when the rift occurred with my mother for his colon problem. She started making demands on the quantity and quality of Christmas gifts she wanted during a period of time that was hard. By the way, we always sent her gifts, and gifts that we liked and thought she would enjoy. It could of ended there, but she harrassed me non-stop for months during this period of time. She is in fact still arguing it on her own blog today that started 4 years ago, where she has a wedding picture of me defaced. I have corresponded with her many times this year via e-mail. In my opinion, she is a very sick woman.
The reason we do not speak, and the reason you and I aren't speaking has nothing to do with the divorce, as I have mentioned several times. It has something to do with your marriage(s), and how you feel it's totally appropriate to drag me into the mess that was both of them (according to your own wife now). Also, how it's totally appropriate for your current wife to be abusive to me. so again, DIVORCE = GOOD. In fact, you and mom both get a gold star for FINALLY getting divorced. It was pre and post divorce that was the problem for me. It was always about you guys, never about being there for me.
"I felt that I owed you at least that much, not to pressure you for more of a relationship than you wanted. "Again about you and what you want.
There is no doubt there are going to be limits on the relationship on both sides if we ever speak again. I have boundaries you are never going to be allowed to cross unless you become a completely different person. Everyone has a right to have a part of them that is theirs. It's not about controlling me and molding me, and having me reflect back the relationship you always invisioned when I was born. It's about the reality of the situation, who we are, and even if we can coexist in a relationship.I can't and won't reflect back the relationship my mother wants with me. That would mean not having a husband, and catering to her fantasy of trips together where we only do what she wants, and she abandons me, as she did before at a mall, when she gets ticked off. Not going to happen for her. There were other ways we could have gone that have been offered to both her and you.Too many chances have been offered, in my opinion.
Weak Explanation from Tony:
I guess I was really afraid to be closer because of what happened between you and your mother. I would alway tell her that you would set the limits of our relationship because I had done such a poor job of protecting you during the divorce. I felt that I owed you at least that much, not to pressure you for more of a relationship than you wanted. I guess that was the wrong strategy, I guess I was just a chicken. Anyway, I hope you are happy and that you and Robert are loving your new life inLove,Dad
Two points to clear up here:
"I guess I was really afraid to be closer because of what happened between you and your mother. I would alway tell her that you would set the limits of our relationship because I had done such a poor job of protecting you during the divorce. "
Robert was in the hospital when the rift occurred with my mother for his colon problem. She started making demands on the quantity and quality of Christmas gifts she wanted during a period of time that was hard. By the way, we always sent her gifts, and gifts that we liked and thought she would enjoy. It could of ended there, but she harrassed me non-stop for months during this period of time. She is in fact still arguing it on her own blog today that started 4 years ago, where she has a wedding picture of me defaced. I have corresponded with her many times this year via e-mail. In my opinion, she is a very sick woman.
The reason we do not speak, and the reason you and I aren't speaking has nothing to do with the divorce, as I have mentioned several times. It has something to do with your marriage(s), and how you feel it's totally appropriate to drag me into the mess that was both of them (according to your own wife now). Also, how it's totally appropriate for your current wife to be abusive to me. so again, DIVORCE = GOOD. In fact, you and mom both get a gold star for FINALLY getting divorced. It was pre and post divorce that was the problem for me. It was always about you guys, never about being there for me.
"I felt that I owed you at least that much, not to pressure you for more of a relationship than you wanted. "Again about you and what you want.
There is no doubt there are going to be limits on the relationship on both sides if we ever speak again. I have boundaries you are never going to be allowed to cross unless you become a completely different person. Everyone has a right to have a part of them that is theirs. It's not about controlling me and molding me, and having me reflect back the relationship you always invisioned when I was born. It's about the reality of the situation, who we are, and even if we can coexist in a relationship.I can't and won't reflect back the relationship my mother wants with me. That would mean not having a husband, and catering to her fantasy of trips together where we only do what she wants, and she abandons me, as she did before at a mall, when she gets ticked off. Not going to happen for her. There were other ways we could have gone that have been offered to both her and you.Too many chances have been offered, in my opinion.
Weak Explanation from Tony:
I guess I was really afraid to be closer because of what happened between you and your mother. I would alway tell her that you would set the limits of our relationship because I had done such a poor job of protecting you during the divorce. I felt that I owed you at least that much, not to pressure you for more of a relationship than you wanted. I guess that was the wrong strategy, I guess I was just a chicken. Anyway, I hope you are happy and that you and Robert are loving your new life inLove,Dad
Wednesday, April 05, 2006
Reply to An Apology
No harm has been done, I just didn't want any lasting "confusion" to be on my part at all. If you are unclear on my reasons, I wanted to reiterate what they were again.I know how it feels to hurt over these familial problems. I was quite hurt (when my request to let this house sale be a non-problem was not honored by either of you). I was further hurt when you both insisted on revisiting it, knowing that Robert's mom was dying. It was pretty crushing to me, because although I believed you both to be selfish and controlling, I thought in the end that my plea to be left alone during this extremely painful portion of me and Rob's life would be respected.
Not only did you both bother him during a stressful time (he won't say this but I will), but you made this selling of our personal property so much more than that. It didn't need to be. I am sorry the other e-mails hurt you, but I wanted you to know this was not the only incident that was making me feel completely disrespected and uncared for. It would have been pretty bad even if this was the only incident, but the fact is, it wasn't. Not by you or by Betty Ann. I had never meant to tell either of you these things, as the past is the past. I am not going to change the person you are, or who Betty Ann is. It would be an exercise in futility, but I can control how I allow myself to be treated and what my boundaries are. There is no denying that. I have gone through enough pain about this in my life.
Finally, you furthered the hurt by not allowing us to just work on our relationship, but again insisting on jamming Betty Ann down my throat as you did 18 years ago. I should have never given in to you then, and we would either be beyond this point now, or we wouldn't have talked since. And I further take responsibility for repairing the breach with Betty Ann when her mother died. I gave her the idea that she could still do this, but she used to be a lot more subtle about it.
Parents during estrangement say "I didn't know this, therefore it's your fault". According to the above, to an extent that is true. However, just because you don't know that someone doesn't like to be verbally and emotionally abused does not mean that you have the right to continue to do that. Also, when I stood up for myself in the past, you made my life miserable, and the only way I have been able to cope for the last 18 years is to make as few waves as possible. I also don't like to be the B word that Betty Ann is very comfortable being. It doesn't make for nice relationships for me, and these are relationships I shouldn't have to fight that hard for. I know because I have them and other people have them, it is quite possible to disagree; respect anothers wishes, respect their different beliefs, respect their different values, and still love them (through actions not words) as a cherished person. I don't know how you can be "confused" about my rage to hear from BA that I have been ruining your marriage for 18 years. I do not know how you can be confused by my "rage" when you refused to do this with me on the phone. I do understand your "confusion" that I verbalized my incredible anger and disbelief that you were being a party to this. And I am not saying you need to step up for me, I am more than capable of defending myself. But to defend her to me after the incident 18 years ago, even if you do not acknowledge her actions presently, is disgusting. "Neutral" I would tolerate. What you have done instead is unacceptable.Until this incident, I have treated both of you as cherished family members. Both of your disrespect, not subsequent e-mails, has hurt me deeply and caused a relationship with you to be impossible for me. If at some point, you can see this "condition" that you demand is not acceptable, we may be able to talk (I realize this would require you to make an unselfish act on your part). As is, please do not contact me again.I accept your apology below. I am going to work on my business again now, and continue enjoying the life and people in it that I am lucky to have, and show me the same.
Robin
Not only did you both bother him during a stressful time (he won't say this but I will), but you made this selling of our personal property so much more than that. It didn't need to be. I am sorry the other e-mails hurt you, but I wanted you to know this was not the only incident that was making me feel completely disrespected and uncared for. It would have been pretty bad even if this was the only incident, but the fact is, it wasn't. Not by you or by Betty Ann. I had never meant to tell either of you these things, as the past is the past. I am not going to change the person you are, or who Betty Ann is. It would be an exercise in futility, but I can control how I allow myself to be treated and what my boundaries are. There is no denying that. I have gone through enough pain about this in my life.
Finally, you furthered the hurt by not allowing us to just work on our relationship, but again insisting on jamming Betty Ann down my throat as you did 18 years ago. I should have never given in to you then, and we would either be beyond this point now, or we wouldn't have talked since. And I further take responsibility for repairing the breach with Betty Ann when her mother died. I gave her the idea that she could still do this, but she used to be a lot more subtle about it.
Parents during estrangement say "I didn't know this, therefore it's your fault". According to the above, to an extent that is true. However, just because you don't know that someone doesn't like to be verbally and emotionally abused does not mean that you have the right to continue to do that. Also, when I stood up for myself in the past, you made my life miserable, and the only way I have been able to cope for the last 18 years is to make as few waves as possible. I also don't like to be the B word that Betty Ann is very comfortable being. It doesn't make for nice relationships for me, and these are relationships I shouldn't have to fight that hard for. I know because I have them and other people have them, it is quite possible to disagree; respect anothers wishes, respect their different beliefs, respect their different values, and still love them (through actions not words) as a cherished person. I don't know how you can be "confused" about my rage to hear from BA that I have been ruining your marriage for 18 years. I do not know how you can be confused by my "rage" when you refused to do this with me on the phone. I do understand your "confusion" that I verbalized my incredible anger and disbelief that you were being a party to this. And I am not saying you need to step up for me, I am more than capable of defending myself. But to defend her to me after the incident 18 years ago, even if you do not acknowledge her actions presently, is disgusting. "Neutral" I would tolerate. What you have done instead is unacceptable.Until this incident, I have treated both of you as cherished family members. Both of your disrespect, not subsequent e-mails, has hurt me deeply and caused a relationship with you to be impossible for me. If at some point, you can see this "condition" that you demand is not acceptable, we may be able to talk (I realize this would require you to make an unselfish act on your part). As is, please do not contact me again.I accept your apology below. I am going to work on my business again now, and continue enjoying the life and people in it that I am lucky to have, and show me the same.
Robin
Monday, April 03, 2006
Another E-Mail From Tony
E-Mail from Dad:
Dear Robin,
I have resisted trying to make contact with you again. I am trying to
respect your wish to be left alone. I guess today I'm feeling really sad
about what has happen between you and me and I'm still confused about it
all. I did attempt to sign up for the family page, I'll find out when I get
home if I've been accepted (I can't access any other emails from school).If you choose to reply you can send it to imanass.com (just kidding that's not an his e-mail link). I don't checkthat email very often but I will for the next couple of days.
I hope you and Robert are well and I miss both of you very much.
My Reply to Dad---Note the above e-mails are fairly common from him (not e-mails but implied in conversations or arguments et), and a ploy to get me to contact so we can start the whole cycle over again:
We are well. I am unsure about your confusion, I think I have been very clear. When you say your confused, to me you are saying "I don't bother to read or absorb anything you say or write". Further more it says to me "I can't believe you are blowing out of proportion my and BAs right to verbally abuse you and take advantage of you every chance we get". Finally it says "I am confused, I didn't know you had a backbone, how inconvenient for me".
I think I have gone over all these points in great detail. I made my choices, and was very clear on the boundaries I was willing to accept. I will not be sucked into any martial problems you are having. I will not discuss someone that I gave 18 years, giving her the doubt, being nice, and very thoughtfully calling and giving an explanation I didn't need to give to her, only to be told that I have been ruining her marriage for 18 years. I will not listen to not one more explanation/excuse for her behavior from you. Been there, done it your way, it is over. Warned you about this 18 years ago. I am not some 13 year old girl crying to her guidance counselor trying to cover for her father's verbal and emotional abuse. I am an adult who won't stand for it any more. Have in fact put up with that.
I only wonder what errand you needed me or Robert to run that made you so sad yesterday. That's about the only time I heard from you or Betty Anne for that matter. Then there was when I would say no to Betty Ann, the phone call that came from you to force me to do it with guilt. All over. All over is also the triangulated conversations via you for every time Betty Ann is displeased. What cowards you both are. I am able to have conversations directly with those I am displeased with, and face what comes out of them.
Sorry not interested. Your e-mails speak volumes of where you are, and you are not a person that is healthy for me to have in my life. I don't miss our relationship at all. It was like I was a balloon tethered to the ground, and finally I got some scissors and cut that string. I don't need to be made to feel like crap all the time.
Other people enjoy my company, include me as a valued family member, and call me just to talk. If on the infrequent occaision that I need help, they are there for me if my car breaks down, or my dog needs to go to the vet and my battery is dead, or I just need to talk. Meanwhile Robert & I raced around like eager puppies when you crook your fingers.
Not that I would mind being there for people if 1) when I have a reason to say no, it's respected and 2) the one time in 18 years I ask for a favor (like don't make this house selling thing a problem for us right now) that was respected. It's not though, and it never will be.I will probably never be convinced that you have the capacity for a two way relationship with me. I think there is something lacking in your character that just prevents you from having any empathy to anyone else that does not suit your purposes or goals. You are controlling and manipulative. An e-mail like this is something you regularly use to suck me right back in, so you can make the same controlling demands on me.You can say you are "confused" all you want, I have been clear. I am comfortable with my decision.
Robin
Dear Robin,
I have resisted trying to make contact with you again. I am trying to
respect your wish to be left alone. I guess today I'm feeling really sad
about what has happen between you and me and I'm still confused about it
all. I did attempt to sign up for the family page, I'll find out when I get
home if I've been accepted (I can't access any other emails from school).If you choose to reply you can send it to imanass.com (just kidding that's not an his e-mail link). I don't checkthat email very often but I will for the next couple of days.
I hope you and Robert are well and I miss both of you very much.
My Reply to Dad---Note the above e-mails are fairly common from him (not e-mails but implied in conversations or arguments et), and a ploy to get me to contact so we can start the whole cycle over again:
We are well. I am unsure about your confusion, I think I have been very clear. When you say your confused, to me you are saying "I don't bother to read or absorb anything you say or write". Further more it says to me "I can't believe you are blowing out of proportion my and BAs right to verbally abuse you and take advantage of you every chance we get". Finally it says "I am confused, I didn't know you had a backbone, how inconvenient for me".
I think I have gone over all these points in great detail. I made my choices, and was very clear on the boundaries I was willing to accept. I will not be sucked into any martial problems you are having. I will not discuss someone that I gave 18 years, giving her the doubt, being nice, and very thoughtfully calling and giving an explanation I didn't need to give to her, only to be told that I have been ruining her marriage for 18 years. I will not listen to not one more explanation/excuse for her behavior from you. Been there, done it your way, it is over. Warned you about this 18 years ago. I am not some 13 year old girl crying to her guidance counselor trying to cover for her father's verbal and emotional abuse. I am an adult who won't stand for it any more. Have in fact put up with that.
I only wonder what errand you needed me or Robert to run that made you so sad yesterday. That's about the only time I heard from you or Betty Anne for that matter. Then there was when I would say no to Betty Ann, the phone call that came from you to force me to do it with guilt. All over. All over is also the triangulated conversations via you for every time Betty Ann is displeased. What cowards you both are. I am able to have conversations directly with those I am displeased with, and face what comes out of them.
Sorry not interested. Your e-mails speak volumes of where you are, and you are not a person that is healthy for me to have in my life. I don't miss our relationship at all. It was like I was a balloon tethered to the ground, and finally I got some scissors and cut that string. I don't need to be made to feel like crap all the time.
Other people enjoy my company, include me as a valued family member, and call me just to talk. If on the infrequent occaision that I need help, they are there for me if my car breaks down, or my dog needs to go to the vet and my battery is dead, or I just need to talk. Meanwhile Robert & I raced around like eager puppies when you crook your fingers.
Not that I would mind being there for people if 1) when I have a reason to say no, it's respected and 2) the one time in 18 years I ask for a favor (like don't make this house selling thing a problem for us right now) that was respected. It's not though, and it never will be.I will probably never be convinced that you have the capacity for a two way relationship with me. I think there is something lacking in your character that just prevents you from having any empathy to anyone else that does not suit your purposes or goals. You are controlling and manipulative. An e-mail like this is something you regularly use to suck me right back in, so you can make the same controlling demands on me.You can say you are "confused" all you want, I have been clear. I am comfortable with my decision.
Robin
Apology From Tony
Robin,My confusion stems from the fact that I never saw this coming. I'm not blind or stupid, but I was caught by surprise by how you felt about me. They say ignorance is bliss, well its not. I was ignorant about how you felt about me and Bettyann, my fault, my problem. My being confused has nothing to do with my not understanding how you feel, it is about my having not seen this coming and not having done anything to prevent this kind of a rift. I have read your emails over and over again, they still hurt. I apologize for any hurt my email might have caused, it wasn't meant that way. My sadness is with me everyday, yesterday it was just overwhelming. Sorry, no harm meant.Dad
Wednesday, March 22, 2006
Post to Me on Public Board
Fist of all let me say, there has been no communication to her from me, but I did talk to someone else on the public board, without identifying my mother on my personal experience and this is what was sent (oh so much longer than any private post to me)
Robin,
If a parent had sent me constant harrassing emails and had called me aliar, that would be troubling. I can understand how you would be upset by that. If you were available to be asked about your reasons for estranging yourself, then it would bepuzzling and upsetting why a parent would ask someone else about it.I have experienced being harrassed by a parent as my own mother did that onoccasion with me, sometimes calling me on the phone five times in a day or leaving long messages(25+ minutes) on our answering machine or calling at 3 AM to tell me she couldn't sleep. I know you remember much of what she did. This drove us all crazy for many years.
However, in your post on Rifts you are referring to my actions, not hers. That is how you remember our exchanges and how you feel.My memory of the email exchange between you and me is different from yours. We did exchange a lot of emails in a short period of time which we had never done before that September in 1995. I was upset too and hurt by some of what was said. If I hadn't been upset, I guess this never would have happened. Perhaps even if it hadn't been email, it wouldn't have happened. We both seemed to feel free to say more than we had ever said to each other in person. I did make an apology at the time for one thing that I said during the initial argument. This apology was never acknowledged and I have been called a liar for even stating that I apologized. I wish I had never made other apologies. It makes me feel like a wimp for having done so. But I cared so much about you and missed you so much that I would have apologized for the rain and wind for a time.
I am not going to apologize for being upset. I am as entitled to my feelings as you are and I felt upset and hurt by things that you said. I have never asked for an apology as it seemed obvious to me that I would never get one. Your refusal to talk to me beginning after that has made it impossible for me to talk with you about it. The person whom I spoke with about it many years ago said that they did not understand it either. I would have been happy to talk with you about it. It wasn't possible to do two opposing things: to give you your space and at the same time make you talk with me. From things you have said back then and recently I have been hearing two different wishes from you: that I would have tried harder and that I would leave you alone. And two different criticisms: that I harrassed you and that Ididn't try hard enough. (And if I try harder, then you feel harrassed.)
I can understand that you might feel abandoned if a parent didn't try harder to contact you but then at the same time you wanted to keep me out of your life. It's just not possible to have it both ways: to have a parent who keeps trying while demanding that the same parent leave you alone. So, as I have said in other places recently, I accepted your decision to estrange yourself. It is your right.
Like Jenny, I would have liked to be able to have a relationship where we were able to have lunch and just hang out sometimes. I will always miss what might have been but isn't.
Love (through tears),Ginny
Robin,
If a parent had sent me constant harrassing emails and had called me aliar, that would be troubling. I can understand how you would be upset by that. If you were available to be asked about your reasons for estranging yourself, then it would bepuzzling and upsetting why a parent would ask someone else about it.I have experienced being harrassed by a parent as my own mother did that onoccasion with me, sometimes calling me on the phone five times in a day or leaving long messages(25+ minutes) on our answering machine or calling at 3 AM to tell me she couldn't sleep. I know you remember much of what she did. This drove us all crazy for many years.
However, in your post on Rifts you are referring to my actions, not hers. That is how you remember our exchanges and how you feel.My memory of the email exchange between you and me is different from yours. We did exchange a lot of emails in a short period of time which we had never done before that September in 1995. I was upset too and hurt by some of what was said. If I hadn't been upset, I guess this never would have happened. Perhaps even if it hadn't been email, it wouldn't have happened. We both seemed to feel free to say more than we had ever said to each other in person. I did make an apology at the time for one thing that I said during the initial argument. This apology was never acknowledged and I have been called a liar for even stating that I apologized. I wish I had never made other apologies. It makes me feel like a wimp for having done so. But I cared so much about you and missed you so much that I would have apologized for the rain and wind for a time.
I am not going to apologize for being upset. I am as entitled to my feelings as you are and I felt upset and hurt by things that you said. I have never asked for an apology as it seemed obvious to me that I would never get one. Your refusal to talk to me beginning after that has made it impossible for me to talk with you about it. The person whom I spoke with about it many years ago said that they did not understand it either. I would have been happy to talk with you about it. It wasn't possible to do two opposing things: to give you your space and at the same time make you talk with me. From things you have said back then and recently I have been hearing two different wishes from you: that I would have tried harder and that I would leave you alone. And two different criticisms: that I harrassed you and that Ididn't try hard enough. (And if I try harder, then you feel harrassed.)
I can understand that you might feel abandoned if a parent didn't try harder to contact you but then at the same time you wanted to keep me out of your life. It's just not possible to have it both ways: to have a parent who keeps trying while demanding that the same parent leave you alone. So, as I have said in other places recently, I accepted your decision to estrange yourself. It is your right.
Like Jenny, I would have liked to be able to have a relationship where we were able to have lunch and just hang out sometimes. I will always miss what might have been but isn't.
Love (through tears),Ginny
Thursday, March 16, 2006
REPLY TO GINNY
Well, you know think what you want. No I did not love you for five minutes today, of for a very long time now. I don't say things I don't mean.I did think you might have actually heard me from you postings and "brief" civil responses. You are deluded, and clearly nothing will ever get through to you, as it didn't before when you "interviewed" everyone even though you knew why we weren't talking.We were still estranged when I got the letter from your mom, so no that wasn't it either, it had already happened, but keep going on with your delusions.I hope someday you can let it go, and you will stop lying to yourself and face your actions.No I do not take responsibilty for our estrangement. It was perfectly in my right to deny your request for the perfect gift, and let you know the problem I had with it. The only responsibility I take, is making the right decision not to talk to you again. (e-mail is not talking)
Reply to Ginny/Letting Her Know I am Aware She Knows I See Her Blog
Thank you for your input, but no I am not looking for that. I guess I check up because:
- It's a public forum, and I want you to know that I can see it. Also, I probably want you to know what I must have felt like when I found you not only watching my site but actually posting and reporting on parts of my site. It doesn't feel good, does it? I guess I was waiting for an acknowledgement of that you might now understand why it was bothersome to me by acknowledging your own feelings.
- I guess I am also interested in what point you will stop arguing with me or the ghost of me in either written format or cartoons.
- And also, I want to see what stories or misconceptions that you might post up on your website so I can reinform you, whether you post them or not (the explanations).
- And just so you know, I use this e-mail because it has no personal info about me on it, I am aware this is not my regular e-mail. I don't need you to ferret out any more than you already have about my personal life.
- On the public blog, you are part of my story, when I talk about myself to other people and why I estranged myself, the story doesn't change just because you don't wish to see it there. I am not talking to you, but to someone about my experiences, of which this is a part. I am going through an estrangment with my father, and sometimes the estrangement with you gets brought up, or I am talking to another mom estranged from their daughter. You claim to do the same thing on your blog, although to me it seems more personally directed at me. So I would think you would be able to understand that, as you had four or five years of doing it.
- As far as you comparing my postings about my step on my webpage to you, number one I will never reconcile with her. Number two, I haven't left it on for years, or I think even a month. Number three, I don't try to justify it as the right thing to do.
I will take this time to reiterate here the reason for the estrangement because you still don't seem to take it in. At the time of the estrangement, I loved you., maybe less than I once did. Your continued arguing and time has eroded that away to the feelings that I have now, and had probably 4-5 years after it happened. I don't know why it's important to me that you understand it. As to agreeing or disagreeing with my reasons, that's entirely your choice.
As I did ten years ago, I agree that permanent estrangement is necessary. If I had received the apology within the year, or just a validation that you understood where I stood, it might have been different. I accept that you did not know what to do or did not want to do that. There is nothing that can be done about that now, as I don't get that you really feel you did anything wrong, and as I said my feelings have changed.
Wednesday, January 25, 2006
Ginny's Analysis of Tony
As for recent occurrences with your father and his wife, my gut feeling was that you are doing what is best for you and that it makes sense. My gut feeling is that the situation was impossible and that estranging yourself may be the best solution. However, I don't know your stepwhatever and I don't know either of their sides of the story. I do know how you have reacted to me. Perhaps your decision makes perfect sense but I don't know for sure because of other things that I do know.I am sorry that your relationship with your father has gone downhill like this. Yes, he is limited in relationships. He offers an image of a warm civilized friendly person but if someone wants to know him better, there is not a lot of there there. He just can't hack it. He doesn't see the need to communicate more and if he did, I don't know whether he has much that he wants to communicate. He is withdrawn but someone has to spend time with him to realize how withdrawn he is.He doesn't know how to communicate or that he is missing out on anything. It is like teaching an elephant to type. He just can't do it. And he seems to be very dependent on having a woman in his life. He will do almost anything to keep one woman in a relationship with him. Not more than one, just one. He would probably do anything .... except have more depth to himself. He can't do that because it's just not there. Being angry at him for this could use up a lot of energy and the outcome would be the same. What you have described about him is what I experienced with him. He hasn't changed.The only way to have a relationship with him is to have a very limited relationship which isn't what you want. The only way to have a relationship with both him and your stepwhatever is ........ I don't know the answer to that. Perhaps your answer to that IS the only answer.I had a limited relationship with my father. The limitations on it did cause me a lot of pain, sadness, and sometimes anger but not anger to the extent that you are experiencing. My father had two serious illnesses of the soul: addictions to alcohol and gambling. He was never able to overcome those illnesses. He didn't even try. They consumed him. Or he allowed them to consume him. Eventually with the help of Al anon I recognized how seriously he was affected and his inability to do anything to get better. So I was not as angry as you are because I could accept that. I didn't see him much but I never estranged myself. He was sometimes abusive but not as abusive as my mother is and was. He had a sweet side that people occasionally saw but that side wasn't around much. I did love him. I hated his illnesses and how they consumed him.Your father is more aggravating in that his illness, whatever it is, is not obvious to most people. He appears warm, friendly, somewhat sociable. He is responsible in his profession. He does his job and goes through the motions well. His lack of ability to have deeper relationships is not noticeable until someone tries to do it. And then he just falls down flat and he doesn't even know that he has fallen down. He blames the disappointment and puzzlement that others feel on learning that there is no there there on them, not on his own inability to be there for them. His blaming others is infuriating.I recognize what you are saying about him. He isn't going to change. If anyone wants to have a relationship with him, they would have to accept him as the limited person that he is and be able to ignore certain things that he does and doesn't do. Not having a relationship might be easier. It sounds as though his wife makes your having a relationship with him much harder than it would be if it was just him by himself.I haven't missed him since he stopped talking to me. The only thing about his stopping talking that I disliked was the fact that it made it more difficult for us all to communicate and to be in the same place when we needed to be. The responsibility for that is his and will always be his. It is something that I have trouble forgiving him for.Personally, if I had been in your shoes and he refused to help me with my dying dog, that would have been sufficient reason right there and then not to speak to him ever again. His refusal makes me sick to think about. I could wish he had some really awfully good reason for that but I don't know what that would be. That he was in an ambulance on the way to the hospital because he was suffering a heart attack? His refusal is appalling.However I am sorry that you and your father aren't on good terms and that you are in pain over it. While you have said that you don't love him, I wonder about that because you must have some feelings of caring for him since this is causing you so much pain. If you didn't care, it would be easier to do. I do support your decision from afar regardless of which way it goes. I know that estranging yourself from him is hard. Maybe some day in the future you and your father will find a way to be in a relationship that is more bearable.The dream that you had about him was scary and powerful. Your mind is giving you strong messages and you are listening. This is good.As for me, I don't know why you put the reason for a failure to reconcile with me on the website and the blog as those are irrelevant considering your lack of feeling for me. The way you feel about me is sufficient reason not to reconcile with me. I wouldn't want you to reconcile with me as long as you feel that way. The website and the blog are part of me too and they are important to me and that is why I do them. So it is best that you know exactly who I am and how I feel and then neither of us need to waste any time on a painful failed reconciliation which is what would happen if you can't accept me and like me for who I am. I prefer to remain estranged rather be in a relationship with anyone who doesn't care about me.I agree with and relate to this quote from William Borroughs that was recently posted to a discussion board: "If after being in someone's presence you feel as though you've lost a quart of plasma, AVOID THAT PRESENCE."
Friday, January 06, 2006
Replies to/from Tony
From Me To Tony--Response to below e-mail:
Tony
The door is closed, and there will be no more further correspondence. If Betty Anne shows up at events in the future that she is not invited to, she will receive direct correspondence from me so she knows she is not welcome. You are not in control of this. She is, she can stop showing up.I have only told you the truth, and I have every right to be angry at mistreatment. If you want to through phrases around like "dealing with your mother at her worst" feel free, it only lets me know that I made the right decision. Don't contact me again, I will no longer respond to your e-mails. Don't show up at personal grieving periods to further your own agenda, and you won't need to receive angry e-mails from either me or Robert. This thing that is so "blown out of proportion", is a ridicoulous statement considering both of your actions. Stay out of my life, it is better without you in it.
From Tony to Me:
I've waited until thing cooled down a bit to try to make some suggestions. Ifeel that the angry emails that you have sent do nothing but "throw gasolineon the fire." I still can't believe that this whole thing has been blown soout of proportion. It brings back painful memories of dealing with your mother at her worst.
Maybe we can agree on a cool down period in which:
Tony
The door is closed, and there will be no more further correspondence. If Betty Anne shows up at events in the future that she is not invited to, she will receive direct correspondence from me so she knows she is not welcome. You are not in control of this. She is, she can stop showing up.I have only told you the truth, and I have every right to be angry at mistreatment. If you want to through phrases around like "dealing with your mother at her worst" feel free, it only lets me know that I made the right decision. Don't contact me again, I will no longer respond to your e-mails. Don't show up at personal grieving periods to further your own agenda, and you won't need to receive angry e-mails from either me or Robert. This thing that is so "blown out of proportion", is a ridicoulous statement considering both of your actions. Stay out of my life, it is better without you in it.
From Tony to Me:
I've waited until thing cooled down a bit to try to make some suggestions. Ifeel that the angry emails that you have sent do nothing but "throw gasolineon the fire." I still can't believe that this whole thing has been blown soout of proportion. It brings back painful memories of dealing with your mother at her worst.
Maybe we can agree on a cool down period in which:
- You can send me all of the emails you want, about anything you want, but do not email Bettyann. She has no interest in receiving any correspondence from you.
- You can send me anything through the mail as long as it is addressed tome, not me and DJ, etc. Anything that is sent with the sole purpose ofexclusion or hurt will be torn up and discarded. Your Christmas card,mailed from Portsmouth on Dec. 21, 2005 arrived on Jan. 7, 2006. This is anexample of what I mean
- I am now and will continue to leave the door open to trying to repair ourrelationship. It takes two people to do this and I hope you will keep thedoor open too and consider this.
I love you and always will.
Wednesday, January 04, 2006
E-Mails and Responses to/from Tony
From Me to Tony in Response to Below:
You were sent both a Thanksgiving e-mail and Christmas card. It really doesn't matter though, just wanted to see why. I would be really curious as to what happened to it, it would be the only Christmas card that did not make it to it's destination. I am not talking about Betty Anne, again, other than the hurt that she has caused me. That's final. I am sorry.Robert has done nothing to damage or abuse you. If he had, I would definately (first of all kill him) and second of all not require you to be bothered by that. I do appreciate your respecting my wishes and boundaries. It would be nice if you could drop a line to Robert yourself for your well wishes. He has done many nice things in the past and present for you.Thank you for your reply, I have my answer. You have yours as well.Robin
Response to below from Dad to Me:
Dear Robin,
First, please tell Robert how sorry I am for what is happening with his mother. That should be the first priority for both of you and I don't want interfere with that process in any way. You need to be there for Robert, I know from experience he will need you.The reason that you haven't heard from me is that I was respecting your wish, as I understood it, "for putting you (me) off for a period of time, but it is something I (you) have to do."
Also, you mention "reciprocal correspondence during the holidays", I never got any correspondence to reply to. I very much want to have a relationship with my daughter, but not one with strings attached. We could no more have a relationship together and never talk about Robert, than we can and not talk about what happen between you and Bettyann. Bettyann is my wife and I love her just as you love Robert. They are part of our lives and we are who we are, in part, because of our relationship to our spouses. I don't expect that you will ever have a relationship with Bettyann or her with you. But if you and I are to have a relationship it needs to be honest and open, no subjects or issues forbidden. That's what I want.
I respect you and your feeling more than you know. But, I have my needs and feelings too. I want to talk with you about what has happen to us, not just about Bettyann, but going all the way back to the beginning. Yes it will be painful, yes it will hurt, but at least it will be real. What we are doing now is not real, what you propose is not real. I'm willing to compromise, I hope you are, but that is up to you.Please think about it for a while, but right now you need to think about Robert first.
Love, Dad
Orginal E-mail from Me to Tony in this thread:
Robert's mother has slipped into a comma. We are probably going to be back and forth to Worcester. However, due to the fact there has been no reciprocal correspondence during the holidays, I am wondering what this means? Have you changed your mind, because if you have you could save me a lot of time and trouble by telling me that?
I am not trying to be difficult here, just trying to be honest, and get an honest response in return. A future relationship is not going back to it's present state. I don't care whether it's closer or just superficial, but there is going to be a zero tolerance policy for what I consider emotional abuse from you. You will not bring up issues about your wife to me, if this relationship continues. That is my boundary, it is not emotional blackmail. I have put up with her for eighteen years giving her the benefit of the doubt, and that is over forever. Just stating this so there is no confusion going forward. That's the way it is, take it or leave it.
So let me know whether you want to get together and I will make plans. Or not, and I will happily continue on with my life.
Robin
You were sent both a Thanksgiving e-mail and Christmas card. It really doesn't matter though, just wanted to see why. I would be really curious as to what happened to it, it would be the only Christmas card that did not make it to it's destination. I am not talking about Betty Anne, again, other than the hurt that she has caused me. That's final. I am sorry.Robert has done nothing to damage or abuse you. If he had, I would definately (first of all kill him) and second of all not require you to be bothered by that. I do appreciate your respecting my wishes and boundaries. It would be nice if you could drop a line to Robert yourself for your well wishes. He has done many nice things in the past and present for you.Thank you for your reply, I have my answer. You have yours as well.Robin
Response to below from Dad to Me:
Dear Robin,
First, please tell Robert how sorry I am for what is happening with his mother. That should be the first priority for both of you and I don't want interfere with that process in any way. You need to be there for Robert, I know from experience he will need you.The reason that you haven't heard from me is that I was respecting your wish, as I understood it, "for putting you (me) off for a period of time, but it is something I (you) have to do."
Also, you mention "reciprocal correspondence during the holidays", I never got any correspondence to reply to. I very much want to have a relationship with my daughter, but not one with strings attached. We could no more have a relationship together and never talk about Robert, than we can and not talk about what happen between you and Bettyann. Bettyann is my wife and I love her just as you love Robert. They are part of our lives and we are who we are, in part, because of our relationship to our spouses. I don't expect that you will ever have a relationship with Bettyann or her with you. But if you and I are to have a relationship it needs to be honest and open, no subjects or issues forbidden. That's what I want.
I respect you and your feeling more than you know. But, I have my needs and feelings too. I want to talk with you about what has happen to us, not just about Bettyann, but going all the way back to the beginning. Yes it will be painful, yes it will hurt, but at least it will be real. What we are doing now is not real, what you propose is not real. I'm willing to compromise, I hope you are, but that is up to you.Please think about it for a while, but right now you need to think about Robert first.
Love, Dad
Orginal E-mail from Me to Tony in this thread:
Robert's mother has slipped into a comma. We are probably going to be back and forth to Worcester. However, due to the fact there has been no reciprocal correspondence during the holidays, I am wondering what this means? Have you changed your mind, because if you have you could save me a lot of time and trouble by telling me that?
I am not trying to be difficult here, just trying to be honest, and get an honest response in return. A future relationship is not going back to it's present state. I don't care whether it's closer or just superficial, but there is going to be a zero tolerance policy for what I consider emotional abuse from you. You will not bring up issues about your wife to me, if this relationship continues. That is my boundary, it is not emotional blackmail. I have put up with her for eighteen years giving her the benefit of the doubt, and that is over forever. Just stating this so there is no confusion going forward. That's the way it is, take it or leave it.
So let me know whether you want to get together and I will make plans. Or not, and I will happily continue on with my life.
Robin
Tuesday, January 03, 2006
Note To Tony After Jean's Funeral
Note: Let me just say there are many ways they both could have handled this. They could have just sat in support in the temple, instead of coming down the receiving line to ignore me on the way by. BA did this so obviously it was almost a cartoon. I looked right at her, and thanked her for coming, as she stuck her nose in the air turned her head and walked right by. She's a peach.
Note to Dad After Funeral (didn't get his e-mail before hand---note condolences only to Robert)
Re: Rob's Mom
I have forwarded your message on to Robert. It was a very sad day for the both of us. She was a wonderful woman, who always included me in everything, and would have been saddened to see that Betty Ann could not act like an adult that day or give both of us her condolences. Or that my father was not able to express his condolences in even a short sentence while he was right in front of me.If you were there for Robert, thank you. I am sure in the future he would like you to be respectful to his wife under similiar circumstances. Hopefully this won't be repeated any time soon.Robin
Dad's Condolences Sent to Robert via My E-mail on the Morning of the Funeral (reason we didn't know they were coming):
Subject: Rob's Mom>>>>Dear Robert,I can't tell you how sorry we are to hear about your mom's passing. She was a wonderful and very special woman. We know what it feels like to lose someone that special in your life. Bettyann and I are coming your mother's service unless you feel that it would be awkward given the situation with Robin. We care about your feelings and know what a difficult time this is for you.Love,Bettyann and Tony
Note to Dad After Funeral (didn't get his e-mail before hand---note condolences only to Robert)
Re: Rob's Mom
I have forwarded your message on to Robert. It was a very sad day for the both of us. She was a wonderful woman, who always included me in everything, and would have been saddened to see that Betty Ann could not act like an adult that day or give both of us her condolences. Or that my father was not able to express his condolences in even a short sentence while he was right in front of me.If you were there for Robert, thank you. I am sure in the future he would like you to be respectful to his wife under similiar circumstances. Hopefully this won't be repeated any time soon.Robin
Dad's Condolences Sent to Robert via My E-mail on the Morning of the Funeral (reason we didn't know they were coming):
Subject: Rob's Mom>>>>Dear Robert,I can't tell you how sorry we are to hear about your mom's passing. She was a wonderful and very special woman. We know what it feels like to lose someone that special in your life. Bettyann and I are coming your mother's service unless you feel that it would be awkward given the situation with Robin. We care about your feelings and know what a difficult time this is for you.Love,Bettyann and Tony
Last E-Mail to My Step
In the future, if you can not act like an adult, please do not attend private family events at which you have not been invited or wanted. If it was your intention to comfort Robert, be there to honor Jean, or comfort his family, you did not accomplish any of the three. Or family functions are not a place for you to feed into your selfishness.
In case you might have actually been attempting to do the right thing, in the future if you feel you must attend univited and unwanted, act like an adult. I may have certain family functions here where I would not exclude you, unless you feel you can not do this. You or dad will receive an invitation to these if you are invited or wanted by other family members to be there.
Jean was a very special woman who loved me very much. She was also aware of my relationship with you, especially since she is the one who offered her home to me 18 years ago after the incident. She would have been saddened to see you and dad walk by without offering your condolences. To her her family, and extended family were her life's joy.
I didn't need your condolenses, but Robert and his family (who also know the story) were shocked to see your behavior, and not even a short sentence of condolence towards me. If you will remember, when your mother died, I wasn't talking to you, but I called you up to offer my condolences. For me, it just highlights what I have been telling them about your attitude towards me all along.
You might consider penning a letter of apology to Robert for your behavior and for the last conversation with him where yyou said "but I had your parents over for dinner" in which you also had no problem breaking ties with him, that is if you really felt like offering some comfort.
PS both of you should know that Robert's e-mail address is in the family calendar, and you should use that if either of you need to correspond with him, and not my address.
In case you might have actually been attempting to do the right thing, in the future if you feel you must attend univited and unwanted, act like an adult. I may have certain family functions here where I would not exclude you, unless you feel you can not do this. You or dad will receive an invitation to these if you are invited or wanted by other family members to be there.
Jean was a very special woman who loved me very much. She was also aware of my relationship with you, especially since she is the one who offered her home to me 18 years ago after the incident. She would have been saddened to see you and dad walk by without offering your condolences. To her her family, and extended family were her life's joy.
I didn't need your condolenses, but Robert and his family (who also know the story) were shocked to see your behavior, and not even a short sentence of condolence towards me. If you will remember, when your mother died, I wasn't talking to you, but I called you up to offer my condolences. For me, it just highlights what I have been telling them about your attitude towards me all along.
You might consider penning a letter of apology to Robert for your behavior and for the last conversation with him where yyou said "but I had your parents over for dinner" in which you also had no problem breaking ties with him, that is if you really felt like offering some comfort.
PS both of you should know that Robert's e-mail address is in the family calendar, and you should use that if either of you need to correspond with him, and not my address.
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