Introduction

Kind of a late introduction, I know. I went ass backwards, but wanted to save several relevant posts about my estrangement.My mother has a personal blog out there about me, but I have gone over all that personal shit. We are different, in that she has been going on for years and years, but I can only dwell on something for so long before I have to agree to disagree. I can't let it rule my life.But in some ways, this condition, estrangement especially from a parent or child does rule one's life. That someone has betrayed you so much, or won't put something down long enough to continue a relationship that isn't 100 proof torture, is something that I still can't get my mind around. And why is it that I need validation from this source? These are all questions that this estranger feels in her mind, and I know that others do as well.I am going to try someday but I doubt it will work. You tie your feelings to a balloon, and then set them free. That's what you want to do with this inside you, and the only reason a person would bear this, is that spending time with the other person makes you feel much worse down to the bottom of your soul.Any way, I am trying to write for another purpose, and a good exercise in that is writing about things that are not so happy, and upbeat. To talk from the darkest parts of your soul, which I haven't done yet. I don't know that I can do it, but I am going to try.

Ginny's Analysis of Tony

As for recent occurrences with your father and his wife, my gut feeling was that you are doing what is best for you and that it makes sense. My gut feeling is that the situation was impossible and that estranging yourself may be the best solution. However, I don't know your stepwhatever and I don't know either of their sides of the story. I do know how you have reacted to me. Perhaps your decision makes perfect sense but I don't know for sure because of other things that I do know.I am sorry that your relationship with your father has gone downhill like this. Yes, he is limited in relationships. He offers an image of a warm civilized friendly person but if someone wants to know him better, there is not a lot of there there. He just can't hack it. He doesn't see the need to communicate more and if he did, I don't know whether he has much that he wants to communicate. He is withdrawn but someone has to spend time with him to realize how withdrawn he is.He doesn't know how to communicate or that he is missing out on anything. It is like teaching an elephant to type. He just can't do it. And he seems to be very dependent on having a woman in his life. He will do almost anything to keep one woman in a relationship with him. Not more than one, just one. He would probably do anything .... except have more depth to himself. He can't do that because it's just not there. Being angry at him for this could use up a lot of energy and the outcome would be the same. What you have described about him is what I experienced with him. He hasn't changed.The only way to have a relationship with him is to have a very limited relationship which isn't what you want. The only way to have a relationship with both him and your stepwhatever is ........ I don't know the answer to that. Perhaps your answer to that IS the only answer.I had a limited relationship with my father. The limitations on it did cause me a lot of pain, sadness, and sometimes anger but not anger to the extent that you are experiencing. My father had two serious illnesses of the soul: addictions to alcohol and gambling. He was never able to overcome those illnesses. He didn't even try. They consumed him. Or he allowed them to consume him. Eventually with the help of Al anon I recognized how seriously he was affected and his inability to do anything to get better. So I was not as angry as you are because I could accept that. I didn't see him much but I never estranged myself. He was sometimes abusive but not as abusive as my mother is and was. He had a sweet side that people occasionally saw but that side wasn't around much. I did love him. I hated his illnesses and how they consumed him.Your father is more aggravating in that his illness, whatever it is, is not obvious to most people. He appears warm, friendly, somewhat sociable. He is responsible in his profession. He does his job and goes through the motions well. His lack of ability to have deeper relationships is not noticeable until someone tries to do it. And then he just falls down flat and he doesn't even know that he has fallen down. He blames the disappointment and puzzlement that others feel on learning that there is no there there on them, not on his own inability to be there for them. His blaming others is infuriating.I recognize what you are saying about him. He isn't going to change. If anyone wants to have a relationship with him, they would have to accept him as the limited person that he is and be able to ignore certain things that he does and doesn't do. Not having a relationship might be easier. It sounds as though his wife makes your having a relationship with him much harder than it would be if it was just him by himself.I haven't missed him since he stopped talking to me. The only thing about his stopping talking that I disliked was the fact that it made it more difficult for us all to communicate and to be in the same place when we needed to be. The responsibility for that is his and will always be his. It is something that I have trouble forgiving him for.Personally, if I had been in your shoes and he refused to help me with my dying dog, that would have been sufficient reason right there and then not to speak to him ever again. His refusal makes me sick to think about. I could wish he had some really awfully good reason for that but I don't know what that would be. That he was in an ambulance on the way to the hospital because he was suffering a heart attack? His refusal is appalling.However I am sorry that you and your father aren't on good terms and that you are in pain over it. While you have said that you don't love him, I wonder about that because you must have some feelings of caring for him since this is causing you so much pain. If you didn't care, it would be easier to do. I do support your decision from afar regardless of which way it goes. I know that estranging yourself from him is hard. Maybe some day in the future you and your father will find a way to be in a relationship that is more bearable.The dream that you had about him was scary and powerful. Your mind is giving you strong messages and you are listening. This is good.As for me, I don't know why you put the reason for a failure to reconcile with me on the website and the blog as those are irrelevant considering your lack of feeling for me. The way you feel about me is sufficient reason not to reconcile with me. I wouldn't want you to reconcile with me as long as you feel that way. The website and the blog are part of me too and they are important to me and that is why I do them. So it is best that you know exactly who I am and how I feel and then neither of us need to waste any time on a painful failed reconciliation which is what would happen if you can't accept me and like me for who I am. I prefer to remain estranged rather be in a relationship with anyone who doesn't care about me.I agree with and relate to this quote from William Borroughs that was recently posted to a discussion board: "If after being in someone's presence you feel as though you've lost a quart of plasma, AVOID THAT PRESENCE."

Notes on Estrangement from Tony/BA

There is an ongoing estrangement first between me & Betty Ann and now between me & Tony as well. This means it is doubtful we will se my side of the family for Thanksgiving or Christmas. So for any of you that feel comfortable, visiting us or calling us during other occasions is recommended.How did this all start? It started by me asking both Betty Ann and my dad to respect my wishes not to use Betty Ann as my real estate agent. Why I even need to do this is beyond me? Why do we all think we are required to use Betty Ann? She doesn't use me or Robert in any business transactions. Well, apparently it was a requirement of our continued relationship.

The reasons that were presented for why we did not want to use Betty Ann? We have a lot of pressure on us right now with Robert's mom dying, his new job as sales manager, my new business, and the purchase of this new house (a happy thing but still pressure filled at this point). We did not want to worry about familial relations coming into play during the sales process of our house. We decided to use a realtor that we could make decisions with quickly or come down hard on if we didn't like what was happening. We would have hesitated on things with Betty Ann, because she was family, and normal people consider the feelings of family.Course, there were reasons we didn't express. When we bought the house in Worcester with Betty Ann, she pressured us on other houses that we did not like. She pressured us on concessions on this house that we did not want to make. She came to Robert's hospital room (the day of his operation to take six inches of intestine out) so he could sign the purchase & sale agreement while he was still under!!!! What a nice caring lovely person she is.Course then there was the real estate transaction with Robert's brother Jeff. Jeff had contacted her, because Robert in a brain fart had given Jeff Betty Ann's number. Jeff found out his job was in jeopardy, and told Betty Ann they were no longer putting the house on the market. Betty Ann went behind Jeff's back to his now ex-wife Theresa, and continued with the deal knowing this. Jeff found out, and ended that whole episode when he found her in his house scheming the whole thing. Nice to know Betty Ann was so thoughtful of family.Any way, needless to express, this simple request of ours was not honored. What happened next to seal the deal? Well, Betty Ann had not said much at the initial conversation. She called back though. She started out defensively asking why I would not use her. I explained again. She asked if we could "try things out". I said no as that would take time we did not have, and we had already decided what route we would take. She then started screaming at me about the horrific events of 18 years past (see below if you are not familiar). I ended the conversation, as I was afraid of what I would say to the attack that I "ruined their marriage 18 years ago" and am in fact "still ruining their marriage". Unable to sway me, and now cut off from discussing this with me, she started on dad. (We were not estranged.....yet). Reasons that she gave for being upset about this during the conversation "humiliation". This is now known as EXCUSE NUMBER ONE. Now note she did not say, I care for you and wanted to help you through this, or I was looking forward to helping you and Robert. Nope, it was the "humiliation" of it that upset her.I had called Tony to give him a head's up (I had also been nice enough to let Tony know before I even had the initial conversation with Betty Ann), he basically blew me off, said he was going to be neutral (which was fine), and then gave EXCUSE NUMBER TWO. That Betty Ann was recently diagnosed with diabetes, so of course it's okay for her to be abusive and unreasonable towards me. Let me just let you know, there is always an excuse from them. Again, not that she cared about us, not that she was looking forward to helping us. Several more nagging conversations between Betty Ann and Tony, apparently convinced him not to be neutral and instead have in-depth conversations about 18 years ago with me. Oh, and about why we weren't using Betty Ann too. Since Betty Ann was no longer allowed to discuss this with me, she took out her favorite puppet, Tony. Wow, must be some marriage that one. So dad calls with the urgent insistence that I let him in my home to rehash the past, which we had talked about then ad nausea, AND of course to talk about the beloved Betty Ann. I said no, talks were called off. I did make it clear Tony could talk to me relating to me & him, just not Betty Ann. This was not acceptable to him. So then Tony left the seemingly oh so thoughtful note, saying he understood that I was upset with HIM, that my points were valid, and that I could make the time place and method of conversation. I chose 4:30 Friday, at a park near me so I wouldn't be trapped in my house with him if he chose a different agenda. Tony was SOOOO concerned about discussing us, that he suggested a rescheduling to the middle of the following week, as he had a dinner date that night, and then plans to go visit Rae and Dick. You know, so it would be more convenient for him, this oh so important conversation. That was it for me. That was the last straw. I have made these same feelings known to Tony in an e-mail.Before I had this conversation with dad, I had called Betty Ann to let her know:

1. she can discuss her feelings with me that I don't need a third party and
2. I didn't appreciate the manipulation of Tony and my relationship for a real estate deal and
3. there was no EXCUSE for her behavior. She ended this conversation with an "FU" (see that's the Betty Ann most of you don't see, but I am fairly familiar with), after she explained her displeasure was that I "didn't try hard enough to use her as my real estate agent".

Was it over then? Oh no, Betty Ann then left not one but five messages for Robert at work!! When Robert called back and asked why she was calling, she said it was because in discussing my reasons for not using her I said "Robert and I" and she wanted to verify. Robert quickly ended this line of conversation, letting her know that she will not be our real estate agent. Then Betty Ann does what she very seldom does. She showed her true self to Robert, by telling him (no actual events or anything just these statements) that I "ruined" and "am ruining" her marriage. She made all sorts of statements, that Robert does not even want to repeat to me, because he was horrified and he was also with me during this period of time and knows from actually being there and witnessing events what the situation was.The bottom line is, in order not to be blamed for their apparently failing marriage (what a surprise with such a loving spouse so concerned about Tony's relationship with his daughter) or to endure the emotional abuse and conversations about events 18 years in the past, which I had forgiven, I have cut off all relations with these people.

What's my problem with Betty Ann Reck Caputo? If my dog is dying, and I don't want to come to Maine, call my dad. After all, it's clearly my responsibility to taxi her father up to Maine at the one time I am having problems in my own life. Not her responsibility, not her sister's responsibility, not Andy's responsibility. No mine. And do you want to know why? It's all about control. Control that she no longer has over me in any form, and it is driving her crazy nuts. Well good. I have tried for 18 years to let bygones be bygones. I have schlepped her father, I have trained her dog for free (even though other appointments she couldn't make or just wasted my time), I have cleaned up after other guests in her Maine home, I have stayed after parties to help her clean up, I have sucked up the feelings I have "for the sake of the family", I have heard her and Andy snicker at my grandmother in Andy's living room because she dropped a crumb or two, I have in fact ignored what an evil bitch she is. I have forgiven that the first day I walked into my father's house to live before I was fully grown, she welcomed me by screaming at me that I was a bitch. And the last day, she came into my bedroom in the dead of night, because dad had offered to do the dishes and I wasn't feeling well & he didn't, and when I stood up she slapped me across the face (I walked out of the house in a night shirt, no other clothes including shoes or socks in a blizzard). I made it clear to my father after that, the condition of a continuing relationship was that I never be put through that again. That condition has been broken. Last year, called Tony's house to wish Tony a happy birthday. I got Betty Ann and chit chatted a bit. I asked where dad was, she said he was at school meetings but she would give him the message. I found out later that they all went out to Chinese dinner that night. It's not really that I wasn't invited, but why would Betty Ann lie to me. What is her problem? Clearly we all know now, she is still blaming me for my dad's first marriage, and that I am a living and breathing reminder of that. Like that is my fault. Apparently I was orchestrating the demise of her marriage for a REALLY long time, like before I was born. You know Ginny and Tony were just so great together, I have been scheming since their divorce to get them back together. Yeah right!! I mean I don't have other things to do, a marriage, a career, a business,......nope just been plotting against Betty Ann. Finally, I had made the mistake of taking care of their dog, DJ, on two separate occasions. I enjoyed taking care of DJ, but it's a mistake because instead of thanking you for that, Betty Ann needs to find ways to make YOU responsible for her dog. First she called me up, and wanted me to take DJ once a week. I said no, that's a lot of work, I don't run a kennel, and I do other administrative things at home where I can't be worrying what an untrained puppy is doing in my house. Then she called on Easter and said if I didn't let her dog loose in my house outside of a crate and keep him there with Leon (assuming I am at the Easter celebration) then it's my fault that she can't have Easter at her house. I asked if she would like my training help at that point (being that we still had two weeks to Easter) and she refused repeating the afore mentioned again. Now what do you think I would be treated to if my dogs were shitting and peeing all over her house unencumbered while we were elsewhere? Hmmmmm?

What's my problem with Tony? He has never supported me in anything unless it goes with his plan. Never saw my dad so proud as when I was a controller. Had I been a clerk at a seven eleven, then I would still be daughter non-existent. Do you know how many co-workers of Tony knew the whole family------well except for his daughter? "Daughter, Tony doesn't have a daughter, I know his whole family". It's like I stole his antiques and for my heroine fix. I assure you that never happened. While I was married, Tony told me to be careful with Robert as my beneficiary, because he "might kill me for the money". So he was not supportive of my marriage, which I think everyone can agree is quite solid. (I think he and Betty Ann better watch out themselves). My wedding day was just so much lovelier by the participation of Tony and Ginny making it about them, avoiding each other, and making the awkwardness so noticeable. Neither made any attempt to be a part of the wedding, before after or during, except to "as a wedding gift" pay for half each of the wedding. Robert's mother was the only one in the family to give me a party. She was the only one to congratulate me on my engagement. She was the only one who offered to participate with me in any rituals normal daughters look forward to, and you would think their parents would be living for. Not mine. No way, it was a day about them. Same with my graduation. Same with EVERY EVENT INCLUDING THE HOUSE IN MAINE. Before Neptune died last year, my Nissan's battery went and Robert got in a car accident. We needed to transport Neptune from the local vet to Tufts emergency. I called dad to see if he could help, he said no. Now let me say, while he calls only for favors, this is the only time I have called for a favor since graduation (and I don't think I called for any FAVOR other than for his attendance). When it really counts, he's not there and not only is he not there, he creates more stress and problems that are unnecessary.It was a simple request, please just let us use another realtor, and do not stress us out during this time when we are dealing with the upcoming death of someone who truly does love and care for us. Neither one of them could comply, they are both now out of my life. This is bound to make most of you extremely uncomfortable. For that I am sorry, but I need to start sticking up for myself and no longer be a doormat for people that don't even care about me. Oh, my dad may say he does, but his actions speak volumes. It's like when serial killers say they love their victims, whose heads can be found in their kitchen freezer. Is that what you would call love? Not me. Recent and past actions on his part have been unacceptable, and in the face of this most recent development, it is clear to me that any energy (beyond this indignity to Betty Ann and dad) is not worth my effort.

Yeah, I know Tony and Betty Ann are going to be horrified by this. And I will enjoy that immensely, whether people agree with this or not. I do need vengeance after my 18 years of hard work being there for them and getting nothing. One darned favor couldn't be done for me. Business must be pretty bad for Betty Ann. Actually, I am sure it's just been the lack of control over me lately that made her peep her little demon head out, and finally show herself for who we always knew she was.

Various Things Ginny Has Posted About Me & My Responses

"In the excitement of the discovery of Robin's Online Rant" Her glee at the discovery that dad and I are estranged.

"Yes, I was a jerk about the Mercedes.I knew Tony adored cars. I was never that into cars but due to a story that is too long and uninteresting my second husband and I ended up with this Mercedes and I wanted to shove that Mercedes right up Tony's nose because he had been such a pain in the butt by not talking to me and not trying to be friends. So I was a jerk. So bite me!" I guess this might be mom's version of an apology? Wow, she really has this empathizing with other people down. Shit happens, and bite me. Gosh, I miss her. I only wish I could now be hounded on the phone going over this again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. Then she wonders why I didn't bring this up kindly. Well, she wouldn't know it, but the way I said it was kind on my part. She keeps talking about mental illness, like it's a put down. It's not, she's mentally ill. I actually separated this for her so she would know, I don't resent her mental illness. I resent the hateful horrible person she is to me. Or I should say was to me, right now she's just having a one way conversation with herself. She is getting her message out to me, and it's nothing new. And now she resents me not letting her get on the phone or have any dialog directly with me. Why? What new thing am I going to learn? I will just open up something that has been healed for a very long time, and now just became less of a scar. I see no reason for it, and it is not going to happen.

"I've sent a second email to my daughter titled "Apology sincerely offered". I hoped that titling it that way might enhance the chances of her reading the email and not deleting it instantly on seeing my email address in the "From" box. While I've apologized in years past in other emails & in paper letters, I'm not convinced that my apologies registered with her. Possibly I didn't word the apologies in a way in which there could be no misinterpretation. Maybe I said something that made her angrier even though I had no intention of doing that." See above LOL. Any way this "sincere" apology was 10 years later for anything she "might have done" to contribute to my decision to estrange. It did almost work. I am relieved now that I did not respond. There are no other e-mails with apologies except for the one like above. It is possible in the last three years she might have sent a manual letter, I don't know I don't bother to open them. I feel I have a pretty good sense of where her head is from what she wrote herself on her website and from estrangement groups though. No thank you.You can read from her own words, the apology wasn't sent to be an apology. It was sent to get the response that she wanted. It was used only to get me to respond.I received a card from DRU letting me know my mother had contributed to them after reading about Neptune's death. I knew she could have cared less, and was just attempting to have me contact her, and sucking me back into the vortex.


"As long as she was "hostage" to her father, she may never have been able to see herself in a relationship with me, a relationship of which her father would disapprove." Do I have to point out the delusional fantasy of this. Anyone who knows me would be rolling with laughter, hostage to my father. God, dad wishes I had ever been a hostage to him. As far as disapproving, usually a disapproval from my father, means I am going to do whatever it is he doesn't like whether I really want to or not. Hahahahahahahaha. Oh too funny. And yeah, my mom doesn't know because----well---I won't let her. She had her chance, she made her decisions, and I made MY decision. Not influenced in any way by my husband or father, because both of them have made it clear that they wanted me to reconcile with my mother. Yeah, that's right, you read the past tense version of that. We are all on the same page now.Must have been the approving hostage of a daughter when I walked out on him and Betty Ann 18 years earlier in a blizzard in bare feet and a night shirt.

"In my case my daughter has not only her husband's view of the world to contend with but also her father's. Maybe it is just easier for her to accept the view that I am the nut than it is to accept that there is anything wrong with either of them. Contending with that might be just downright revolutionary and would raise issues that she shoves under the rug." My husband has never been anything other than loving and kind to my mother. She makes me sick with her constant criticism of him as a source for this estrangement. My husband talked to her long after I talked to her, and only cut that off because it was upsetting me that she was calling and "interviewing" my husband for her estrangement book. My husband took an active interest in my mother, and would go out of his way to make her feel comfortable and special when she visited. What do they say, no good deed shall go unpunished?

"I think what bugs her so much about her wedding day is that she wanted a perfect day that met all of her fantasies of it and she will never be able to remember her wedding as perfect because her father and I were not on good terms. The truth is that weddings, like everything else are never perfect and if it hadn't been the situation between Tony & I, it would have been another imperfection that would endlessly bug her. It is seeing the glass as always half empty. How can someone be happy if they can't accept that shit happens and sometimes people don't feel or act as you want them to?" Shit happens is my mom's excuse as to why she couldn't be with me enjoying the day instead of indulging in her fantasies of revenge with my father and her new Mercedes. Charming. So nice to see that she can empathize that her daughter asked one thing of her on a day that was never going to happen again. This thing, to be a part of the wedding experience in a nice way, was very possible to do. I just saw my brother-in-law and his ex-wife do it at their son, Joel's, wedding. This is petty to her, the way her presents are petty to me, I guess. This is what I had asked that we agree to disagree on 10 years ago. By the way, except for the attendance of my parents and step (barf-can't say it), the day was exceptional and fun. I probably should have instead been hoping a few less family members to be there, instead of hoping they could enjoy the day with me. That would have been far more realistic.

"Another thing that I learned from Robin's rant is that she and her husband are buying a $624,000 house! This blows my mind! This from the person who sent me a tin of cookies for Christmas in the year prior to her estranging herself from me because they were short of money!" On a PRESENT (what a surprise) which was thoughtfully done by us for her. We worked really hard on those cookies, and dad to this day requests his cookies every year. Most mothers would think this was thoughtful. You could never get it right. Next year after her whining about the quality and quantity of presents, I got her gardening supplies. She had a problem with that too. You just could never get it right. It's not like I've never gotten a present I didn't like, but I am always thankful to the people who thought of me, and don't expect that they are psychic. And to someone who this means so much, there is something wrong, and then there is no joy in gift giving. Favorite gift giving memory is when I bought Aunt Rae a doll for Christmas. Rae didn't normally buy me Christmas gifts, but I saw this doll and thought of her, and knew she must have it. I didn't expect anything from it, not even the look of surprise and slight tears and a hug Rae gave me. But those gestures felt good!!! Then Rae even sent me a photo of the doll in her house! Not so much fun when it becomes the torture wheel of will you pick out the correct present this time? Especially when you are driving from work to the hospital to bed, and your mother doesn't even ask "so how is your husband doing? is he okay?" "Hey how are you doing, are you okay?"

"I am amused because in 1995 she chose working on a relationship with her feelings-constipated father rather than have any relationship with me and now she has decided that working on a relationship with him is futile." Then she later says she likes him and he has feelings, then he doesn't, then it is such a mystery that he wouldn't be friends after she had an affair. No, how nice it is that my daughter has been able to have a relationship with her father, a difficult task at best. Nope just the same old jealousy and complaints. It's been 18 years now. They are divorced, they are not friends. It's no mystery why he's not friends with her, especially if he had any of the "hounding" I've had.

There is a defaced wedding photograph on my mother's site of meHow many mothers would do this to a picture of their daughter that they "love"? Gotta hope not many. When talking to my mother-in-law about this, she said some people will say they love you, but I'm thinking "do I really want YOUR love"? Meaning what is being offered may not be your interpretation of the feeling. And any time I have written about it on my website, Ginny has updated her website to express her sudden concern and joy. It's like someone who just does not have this moral center, but instantly recognizes they should have this moral center. So now we need to present the expected moral center. She thinks I am infuriated by this, no infinitely saddened. On the other hand, she has made her decisions, as I have mine. I am able to stand by my decisions and their consequences. I feel quite comfortable with that. I enjoyed 10 years of peace. Now I have the rest of my life of guilt free peace to look forward to. Sad? You betcha. Better for me? You betcha.

"What this means for the future? I don't know. I guess it is a positive step as far as its increasing the chances that I might hear from her again. In the short run I don't think it changes anything about her estrangement from me but maybe this break will be a positive one in that she never did hold her father responsible for much of what he did and she never was willing to confront him on anything." First of all, again no, not ever.Ha, my father is held to a higher standard. I hold him responsible not only for his actions, but for the actions of his wife or his allowance of them by giving them excuses. Again, the delusion that I picked sides in the divorce. There were no sides picked. One has nothing to do with the other. Here is my father, he is one person. Here is my mother, she is another person. I have confronted him on a lot of things, but I understand she would not know that never being around me. Plus, I refused to talk about him to her, because it was the only topic of conversation with her for so long, and really it needs to be put to a rest. 18 years later, still being debated by her to herself.

"Another odd thing was that she blamed me for it even though it was her father's decision to estrange himself." Didn't blame my mother for it, blamed my mother and father both equally (not about the estranging, but about the ability not to get along at family functions later on----my wedding-----my graduation). Although I did understand why my father would estrange himself from her (especially right at this moment) after she was not faithful during the marriage. That's not so unusual for a partner to be so upset at another that they can't remain friends. Just like I didn't blame my mother for having a divorce, as dad is no prize, and I am sure she had a laundry list of reasons why this needed to be done. I had a laundry list of reasons why they should be divorced. I don't judge her for the affair, but it's not something I would have done. I'm sure she was doing the best she could in general. But in her fantasy life, I am blaming her for all of this, not being empathetic of the divorce. Well, jeez, I am not now it was 18 years ago, get over it. At the time, course I knew she was upset.Course Ginny blames a letter she sent about a book for that. But does she ever wonder where the anger came from in the first place that someone would seek to withhold something like that. Ginny has a hard time seeing the source, especially when it is something she did wrong. It's always only the petty things of no consequence that she did afterwards not the really big pink elephant in the middle of the living room. Later, when my dad offered to let me go in the attic and get some of my things, she actually suggested that I go look for her things behind his back. Nice.

"She has estranged herself from me, then my mother, then her father and her stepmother. I wonder if she now sees estrangement as a positive thing or a negative or neither, just a necessary thing. Or maybe she just sees it as positive if she is the one who is doing the estranging?" The estrangement is necessary for me to go on with my life. As far as the estrangement from my grandmother, I don't know how to have a relationship with someone on the phone with you either threatening they are going to commit suicide because of you or reporting that someone else is going to commit suicide because of you. Especially if you aren't in a close relationship that has already been marred by emotional abuse. As for my step (throw up) whatever, I don't need to be in a relationship with someone who is telling me that for 18 years I have been seeking to destroy their marriage. As for my father, he recently sent well wishes and an apology. There is hope. Had this not been the case, then there would be no relationship to work on. Very little was asked from my mother as terms of a truce 1) a vacation from each other (she could have done this and choose not to) 2) a ceasing of all presents to or from me and 3) to be there for me on occasion. She is very empathetic to her own plight, but not to mine. I hope she is of other friends and her husband. That would probably go along way in preventing another relationship to be terminated. There have been several, apparently an old friend over contact lenses. Yipes. I know exactly why her friend didn't write or call back.

"I never would have expected that things would turn out this way with Robin becoming estranged from everyone. She is 39 now. An adult." First of all, she should talk LOL. Second of all, that is everyone three people? Wow, thought my world was a whole lot bigger. All for incredibly good reasons, and one relationship on the mend. Yeah, I am 39 and an adult. As an adult child what you should know is, you don't need to put up with crap from people even if they did bring you into the world. I mean it's nice if you can. I've put up with all sorts of stuff for the sake of the "family". Course my mom can't decide is it that I didn't have a "backbone", but then when I do why I am horrible for sticking up for myself. Especially sticking up for myself with her, that is just not acceptable. And that was and is her choice, and she should be able to own up to her actions. When you see things in black in white that have been written at a time when one feels safe, that is the real person. The persona that they put on when they are "expected to do the right thing" that is not that person, but in some people this inner pus is just seething to get out. I see the inner pus on my mothers website. I know that person. She can say that isn't me all she wants to. Betty Ann said "that wasn't me" after she screamed at me the first day I moved into my fathers house (another fantasy on my mothers part that I have called it Betty Ann's house because I have "aligned' with her LOL. No I called it her house, because if one has ever been to my childhood Amityville horror house, you would know it's her house----not in a good way). Then when Betty Ann slapped me across the face, nope that wasn't her either. I mean she wasn't saying that she did not physically do or say those things, just looking back at it when she was ashamed, she realized people don't do those things to each other in "normal" relationships. But I am not stupid, and I know that was in fact Betty Ann.Hey if there had been a way for me to stop my mother from arguing with me non stop about presents, the relationship would be existent. I pleaded and begged unheard. The only solution was to stop communicating with her. However, I have no use for that type of non-stop abuse, especially when there is no reciprocating relationship. I can see where outsiders might think that was "bratty" or "spoiled", but unless they have lived with that kind of unceasing emotional abuse and denial that it's taking place, they can't possibly understand and I hope they never will have to.Same with my dad, had I continued to talk to him, do you think I would have gotten an apology? How do you think it would have gone if I just folded and had apologized and used BA for a real estate agent? If you guessed the same abuse into infinity, you would be right. I was the one communicating, that's why I stopped it when it was not being fruitful and instead ended up being me enduring the same abuses that I have endured for the last 18 years. That WILL change forever one way or the other. That decision is not mine to make, but the other party's willingness to respect my boundaries.My mom has not respected my boundaries. She has posted stuff public ally on the web, put out a challenge for me to find out what kind of person she is, and then is angry when I find what was out there for all the public to find.

"All I can do is hope that life eventually teaches her that her mom is a lot more normal than she thinks and that we have a lot of life left that could be lived with each other in it doing some things together." I feel sad that I have become convinced that my mom is not the norm. Or if she is the norm, she is the norm of an emotionally abusive parent. She calls my dad emotionally-constipated, and I do see her point. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black though.I don't want to do anything with Ginny, I don't want to see or hear from Ginny. The person that I want to see and hear from does not exist except in my imagination.

"I don't know where the other stories came from. Years ago when I read what she wrote to me, I thought that she had me all mixed up with my mother." The extent of any conversation with my grandmother snickers was "hi" "merry Christmas" and "thank you". She says she thinks her mother fed me these stories. My grandmother and I never ever talked about my mother. So if she is seeing some sort of weird similarity there, she really should investigate that. Do I see a similarity? My mom has expressed a wish to hurt herself on her own page. That is certainly similar. She was cut off from me during these years, so she did not get the chance to call me up as she was doing it, as my grandmother did when I was small. I really can't remember whether my mother was showing any of these signs, because if I felt sympathetic to anyone before 1991 or so, it was my mother. My father would be justified in saying I was one sided during that time. I don't think I saw, and thank God for that, everything that was going on just then. On an aside, I don't think any child grown or not grown should have to know every friggin detail of what went on in their parents divorce any way. And grown ups should just buck up and be there for the kids, and not worry about what their kids do or do not know.

"Although maybe it is a matter of semantics but I almost hate to say that I am proud because expressing pride seems to have an element of taking credit for someone else's accomplishments. I give her full credit for what she has achieved. Maybe my being her mom helped create a backbone that assisted her in accomplishing these things but I don't know." She performed the necessary duties of a mother before I came of age to move out. For that I thank her for not physically abusing me, sexually abusing me, starving me, or not letting me in the house before I could take care of myself. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate it. As for "creating the backbone" that all came about outside of her influence and despite the fact that she openly would chastise me for being afraid to jump off a diving board (I am afraid of water, and can not swim well) and being critical of many little moves I made. It speaks volumes of just how much she "loved" and "adored" me, her very twisted version that does not meet with my version of being loved and adored. Her loved and adored, I can do without thank you very much. Also, she brought me on vacation to the Cape, but abandoned me at the mall for an hour because she didn't like what I said (dad had given me a message I unwittingly gave to her-----their favorite pawn). When she came back, instead of apologizing she screamed at me never to give a message from my father again. Now it's not like I had my own car or even knew how to drive or how to get somewhere if I had to? How's that for bringing up your daughter to have high self esteem? Yeah, that's something I did for myself DESPITE my upbringing not BECAUSE of it. Later, she asked me to go to Sweden with her. Yeah right, I want to be deserted in the middle of a foreign country when something doesn't go her way.(Ginny has posted on her website that the diving incident is a lie. Of course, I needed to make up a story and that was just the best that I could do. It was during a lesson at the Holden pool. I know in training dogs that if a dog is terrified of doing something, you don't make the dog more terrified and uncertain of you. The things she chooses to dispute, and the things she can't she says "shit happens" or :"bite me". Oh there's usually the "apology" of sorry before that.Additionally she twists on her website, the fact that she abandoned me for an hour in the PARKING LOT at a mall AFTER SCREAMING AT ME ABOUT A MESSAGE MY MOTHER SAID OF WHICH I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY PARTICULAR IMPORT, as me sulking because she wouldn't go to the mall with me. These justifications and fictions help my mother live with what she has done to herself. I have gone on, apparently she never can. You would think that someone who claims to be a good mother, would understand how it might feel for someone who can't drive and is afraid of calling her father for help might feel being left without knowing when or if someone is coming back. There is some good parenting skills for you.)I haven't sent a thank you card to the bullies that bullied me in junior high until I popped them in the nose one day. Something I did, influenced by no one else but me. I don't feel the need to thank them. I also don't feel the need to thank the CEO of a corporation that I worked for that made me the sexual harassment officer during a period of time where an employee was raped. Then went after me, because I didn't "roll over" as expected. I filed and won that case. I don't feel the need to thank him for that. Similarly, I don't feel the need to thank my mother for her emotional abuse, and how it may or may not have shaped me. I would have still been a good person if I had an emotional nurturing mother who did not need to "learn" that her daughter was an individual. Who also did not need to attack every loving relationship that I have (my husband was despised by her because he was too "nurturing") because she is unable and unwilling to supply the same. I do thank her for sitting me down when I was little and saying "some people believe fate whisks them along and you have no choice in life. and some people believe you make your choices and live with the rewards and consequences". I believe that. She made her choices, and more power to her. She should live that life she has carved out for herself as will I.

"Yet my daughter remembers things as though I was a cruel horrible person. She remembers a mother who harangued her to dive off a diving board and she was not a good swimmer. I have no memory of this. I am not a good swimmer and have never been good at diving off a diving board. I hate to get my face underwater. I can't swim underwater. I have always been afraid of water. I am empathetic with anyone's, including my daughter's, fear of water.I recall that my daughter is not a good swimmer. I have no memory of seeing her on a diving board nor do I have a memory of haranguing her to dive off a diving board. That kind of behavior is foreign to my knowledge of myself and of anything that I would do. If she remembers something related to a diving board and me and swimming and haranguing, I have to say, "it wasn't me," because to my knowledge of myself, I wouldn't do something like what she is describing." See paragraph's above. Ginny thinks a person that is horrible would do something like this, she did during a Holden pool swimming lesson, so I guess by her own definition she is a horrible person. I was only showing an example of the way she "worked on" my self esteem for which she wanted me to thank her. My self-esteem is my own creation, and if I were to thank anyone it might be my grandmother. Although, she wasn't quite a feminist, so she really wouldn't have been telling me to stick up for myself, she was always proud of me in the end though.

"When her paternal grandfather died, she told me that she had no feeling about his death. This struck me as odd. He had been a pretty nice grandfather and had loved her. I don't understand her lack of feeling at his death. She reported the same thing to me when her step-brother died. No particular feeling." What? WHAT? WHHHHAAAATTTT? Wow, I never said that would have said that. What a horrible horrible horrible person my mother is. And I bet she is wondering where I found this gem, not on her website, but on an estrangement board. She asked what I would do if I found proof that she was a nice person. This is proof that she is the horrible horrible person I thought of her. I was devastated by both the deaths of my grandfather and step-brother. I happened to be close to my step brother, Josh.

"She also has a tendency to overestimate her abilities. She is an accountant. As a beginning accountant she considered herself capable of advising companies on their finances while not handling her own finances well. But maybe this is typical of accountants?" LOL, seems I am doing just fine now. Yeah, I overestimated my abilities, can't handle my finances, and now she can't understand how I can afford my house. Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh that is rich. Another posting from my beloved mother (not a mommy dearest oh no) from the board. Oh she's a lovely lovely woman.

"In my case my daughter might criticize me for having been more productive than she has been and for having a more interesting life." Wow. Interesting assumption. Why doesn't she just read her e-mails from 10 years before that she still has, I can't do anything about the phone conversations as I didn't record those, and am surprised she didn't LOL.

"Mr. Blue/Keillor told me that I wasn't really estranged, that my style was combative, and that I shouldn't write a book. It sounded to me like, "Silly woman! Get your head on straight! Your daughter isn't really not talking to you but you have a combative style and that is the problem and, for heaven's sake, don't write a book .... that would be just .... silly!"My response to this in email was ... combative! I informed Mr. Keillor/Blue that he must have issues with his mother and/or his ex-wife and that I had sent in my question to him as an experiment in asking a columnist anything and he had failed the test! Thereby confirming for him his point about my combativeness! Remembering that makes me smile a bit." Oh the horror, mom went to this person to ask about writing a book. The below is what he said to her outlined version of the estrangement. LOL. I really shouldn't feel bad if she can't hear me and just keeps going on and on, because she can't hear anyone else either. Even someone she admired. They were not being professional, because they were not on her side LOL.

"Dear Rejected,This is a grievous story and I am sorry for your loss of the adult friendship of a child. But your combative tone makes me think that you have blundered into this situation and antagonized your daughter on your own steam. You say this started back when you got upset about her taking you for granted? Good Lord, madame, that is a poor pretext for a fight with your only child, I must say. God knows, it's human enough to get upset, but there comes a point when you simply must accept your children as they are, stop prodding and pushing and punishing them, and learn to enjoy their company. You weren't rejected: You simply got into a fight you had no business fighting, and you wound up the loser. It's a sad fact that our power to anger and alienate others is so immense and our power to reconcile is so pitifully small. The lesson is: Be slow to anger. Don't be right every time you have a chance to. And don't go off writing a book about this as a further exercise in self-justification. If you need to write something, try writing an apology."Amen, although, an apology now is highly suspicious. She says her site is to "help other people". Yeah she's the Mother Theresa of estrangement. Then she goes on to research him, LOL. It's all really so typical. I remember once she told me about a group session, and one of the people in the group really really didn't like her and said so. She just couldn't keep this out of her mind, and ended up harassing this poor woman.

"The irony of this thing about my daughter and my mother is that until my mother decided to try to change my daughter's mind about estranging herself, my daughter was fine with my mother and went out of her way to maintain a relationship with her. She had a relationship with my mom right up till the day that she got a letter from my mother that tried to pressure her to end the estrangement with me. Since then she has refused to have anything to do with my mother too. And then later spoke of my mother's upsetting phone calls that she had answered many years previously when my daughter was young. Yet it wasn't till AFTER my mother spoke in a manner supportive of me (which was a change) that my daughter decided that my mother wasn't worth having a relationship with.""When my mother tried to get my daughter to talk tome (my mother & I were on speaking terms then), my daughter cut her off too.""what do you think your daughter was trying to accomplish by cutting of her grandmother?""The removal of any disagreement with her course of action. I think she felt that her perceived ally, my mother, had betrayed her by sidingwith the"enemy", me."My grandmother told me I was going to cause my mothers suicide. A tiny bit different than my mothers description, and my mother knew this as I forwarded the letter from my grandmother to my mother. A bit of a twist of the reality of the situation. Before then, I felt bad for an old woman, and those phone calls had stopped. That letter was just a repeat of the same abuse.My mother thinks I blame her for this letter. I don't, but I do think she was thinking along the same lines that my grandmother had when she had called for attention during suicide "attempts". She was ramping up into those kind of hysterics having contacted everyone else she could think of in my family to talk about me and "interview" them on their thoughts of estrangement. I wasn't going there. She talked of thinking of hurting herself and thoughts of suicide both on her blog and on the online board.And yeah, maybe it was just the excuse I needed to dispense any guilt over ending a situation that was rapidly just sucking the life out of me. It's interesting how my mother edits these statements without this fact in them (the suicide). I was just cutting off my grandmother, because she was stepping forward for my mother. My mother knows this is untrue, but represents it this way for her own purposes.No matter what she says, she knew full well the reason that I stopped talking to Grandma Snickers had NOTHING to do with the fact that Grandmother Snickers stood up for her. She was told the reason that I stopped talking to her was because of this abusive treatment, and her twisting of the facts because she knows she is wrong in what she published on public web boards is not excused or forgiven. She was told, her ability not to listen or process what she has been told is not an excuse for her continued bad and emotionally abusive behavior. It is very possible this is brought on by mental illness, but that is still not an excuse when you know that behavior is wrong. She also says now that she just doesn't post every detail. Well when you are deliberately posting events twisted to make you look good, that's not just leaving out a few details, and in this instance is particularly unforgivable and if it's not sick it's certainly evil.

"Yes, the fear of total loss of the relationship. I had that fear right when this started back in 1995. The grief was debilitating. I write now from a mental state of 9 years in the making so you know me at a more detached, more peaceful (strange word to use but this is relative) place. For the first four years I was devastated. Losing my daughter has been overwhelming at times. The depression was serious. I did think about suicide which is what took me to a psychiatrist to be diagnosed for depression and put on medication." This is a post on the estrangement board from my mother. This year, she claims to never have expressed to anyone any thoughts of suicide. See for me, I could see the pattern coming when my grandmother wrote me the letter. Been there done that.Suicide threats are a excellent way to control and manipulate people. Especially people like me that care about human life. However, I had learned through my experiences with my grandmother and grandfather how this all worked. So my reaction isn't going to be to run to this person's aid. I know why they do that, and I have no doubt now that was exactly what was expressed from my mother to my grandmother. It's an incredibly selfish thing to do or say or think. You are thinking of hurting the ones you love. Did my mother even think about Jimmy as she was having these thoughts? Thoughts like these have never crossed my mind, I see them as evil.However, I do have a friend who sometimes feels this. He does not feel this BECAUSE of someone though. He knows that his source is a mental illness, and he goes for treatment. I can talk to him about it because he is not going to "kill himself" because I agree or don't agree. Or don't call him or whatever.

"My daughter had minor brushes with this behavior. And again, my daughter had NO problem or complaint about my mother until AFTER my mother supported me by trying to get her to end the estrangement. Prior to that my daughter saw my mother as an ally with her to disparage me.The comments about my mother and her phone calls were a surprise to me as I was not aware of any time that my daughter had ever "handled" any phone calls with my mother on her own. My SIL was the one who told me about this secretly." Again lack of empathy. I know this affected my mother MORE. I didn't know we were in a race on who has been impacted more by my grandmother Snickers. Again, I felt sorry for an old woman, and that was the only reason that I had renewed contacts. And how sad that Aunt Rae probably felt the need to go to my mother behind my back not knowing all the facts. Even if she did know, she comes from quite a different upbringing than me that involves Roman Cat holism, which I don't believe in. Aunt Rae would never do this to her mother, even if her mother had been the type to physically abused her (She wasn't. My grandmother Caputo was an amazing and loving person.) We are just different, and I know my Aunt Rae was only trying to help me. Good to know who it was though, I thought somehow Betty Ann and mom had gotten together to talk about me LOL. Knew it was a paranoid assumption, and didn't publish that.Again in regards to trying to be nice to my abusive grandmother in her old age, no good deed shall go unpunished.

"I know that sometimes people come here who have done that ... have cut off family members and never given them a reason why. I know it has happened to me. While my daughter & I had a disagreement, nothing had occurred that would explain her not ever talking to me again. I had been a good friend as well as being a good mother prior to (and during) that disagreement. Nothing about me that I am aware of .... or that others who are close to me are aware of ..... explains this estrangement. I know how crazymaking this is.I made sure to tell my mother what had occurred to cause me to stop talking to her. She had the option of promising not to do that again and of taking responsibility for her behavior. That didn't happen. I don't trust her to stop harrassing & denigrating me. So in that estrangement, there is a clear reason which I expressed to her for not talking to her plus a history of very bad behavior on her part for decades. But in the relationship with my daughter, there was no history of that, no explanation to me, no logical reason to cut me off for the rest of her life." My mother still has the reams of e-mails and letters from 1995 that explain this to her. Plus there were the phone calls that explained this to her. Plus these e-mails and notes on my web after 10 years. I have told her why over and over again. It's because she won't stop having this argument. It won't stop ever. She won't stop talking to me about my father and her. They have been divorced for 18 years, I do not care. Who cares? She is remarried for Christ's sake.It is so frightening that the same thing has happened with her mother, and her mother doesn't hear her either. I don't know whether they have the same thing or not. What I know is my mother is not a nice person, and just won't stop apparently. Not ever.She can pretend ignorance all she wants, but she has the answers right in front of her.Everything I bring up in the past are in response to her posts. I don't bring them up on their merits alone, but as a way to show how I perceive the present. History teaches us, and this case is no different. Ginny is right, she hasn't changed, I have changed and grown up. I have learned how to interpret manipulative and destructive behavior. I have learned not to accept emotional abuse.

"My mother's need to manipulate me is probably from the idea that I am"owned" by her. She seems to have no sense of a boundary where sheleaves off and I begin. She's never gotten the idea that I am notproperty. Even though we haven't been close. It might have made somelogical sense if we had been a mother and daughter who spent a lot oftime together. I have learned to distrust her. Haven't trusted her orrelied on her ever. When I forgot and gave her one piece of personalinformation that I shouldn't have, I paid for it!" This is a quote from my mother on her mother. Seems very similar to me, I can say exactly the same thing about my relationship with my mother. We have decided not to have children for reasons other than this, but this attitude is duplicated in both my parents. One big fear before I decided not to have children would be that I would visit this sickness on them despite my best intentions.

"For an example of that, she was convinced that on a visit to me two years earlier with her husband, I had not wanted her here. This was a 100% misinterpretation. I was so excited to have her visiting me for the first time in years. But she believed that they were not welcome and her husband reinforced this belief. He told her that he felt and thought the same thing. Consequently, she believed that it was true!" First of all, I make my own decisions. Second of all, I don't believe we said we felt "unwelcome" I think we said we felt uncomfortable. We were trapped in a house that felt like it was 40 degrees. Every time we wanted to go somewhere either alone or with them we were stopped. Mom later said it was because of ice storms, but we live in New England for gosh sake, and know how to judge and manage the street weather. We were miserable and we decided to leave. It was torture. When my mother came to visit me, it was also for a brief as period of time as possible for both my graduation and my wedding. I just wanted to get home and be somewhere that I could enjoy myself. I think the only reason my husband even came into the conversation, was she came out blaming it entirely on him, and I wanted her to be clear that I wanted to leave.During this and other visits, the agenda was hers. I was trapped into her activities, what she liked, her conversations about her. I couldn't go out and explore or go to the mall to shop or watch anything entertaining on television.During our estrangement, my mom tried to make one last bid to come up here and spend some time with me. I really had expressed a wish not to do this, but hadn't said an outright no. She had said before that we could do anything I liked and I could plan the days and activities. Then came another letter that listed activities she didn't want to do (all the ones I liked of course) and a meal plan for Robert to make for her because she didn't like "his kind of food". The one meal he ever made for her was brisket, and it was excellent. I remember my mom making corned beef for us and liking it. IShe now says on her website that this was expected because Robert liked to cook, and she had a low cholesterol diet. First of all, her cholesterol needs were not mentioned in her letter. Second of all, she wasn't staying with us, and Robert is and was not her servant. He is a wonderful person to be appreciated not manipulated and ordered around by a controlling mother in-law.Regardless to say, that visit never happened. And never will.

"That last part didn't really surprise me. What DID surprise me was the accusation that I am mentally ill and was abusive. I am insulted, angry, appalled, offended, and shocked by that accusation. That is so very far from reality that it is ludicrous! I hate to tell anyone about it even because of the remote chance that anyone thinks for a moment that it is true. So I share it here with some trepidation. But since it has happened to others here, like Michele, I think it is only fair that I say that this has happened to me too. To my HUGE surprise. I NEVER would have expected that. ABSOLUTELY NEVER!" Um, I think I made my point about my mother. She is hugely emotionally abusive. She lives in this fairy tale world where she was the Mrs Cleaver of mothers. Again, she did the duties of feeding, clothing, and sheltering me. She allowed me to have outside activities of music and such, which I desperately needed to get away from my feuding parents. But emotionally abusive, you betcha, something I found out fully this year.

"My mother received three copies of the book and sent two to me so that I could have one for myself and could give one to my daughter. I sent one to my daughter, hoping that she would open the package before deciding to put it in the trash. Since it was a hardbound book and had some weight to it, I hoped that she would open it to check on what it was before consigning it to oblivion. Apparently, she put things straight into the trash without checking to see what they were. If she didn't want the genealogy, I am sure one of the second or third cousins would have liked to have had it. It's gone." Sigh, again I wrote specifically that everything for about the last three years was thrown away. It makes for good dramatics for put upon Ginny though.

"I don't have to spend time with people who assume that the maintenance of roads in my state is the same as maintenance of roads in their state and that my intention is to trap them in my house. Who needs this? Like I don't know how roads are maintained where I live and where they live?" I was a driving adult during this period, well able to judge the roads in many a state. They were not undriveable, but Ginny as always was controlling. This is an example of how Ginny needs to argue the trivial things, and not for a moment pause and think was I doing that? Both my parents are very controlling. Beware to all when things don't go their way. You will suffer. We should have just left the house right then, and drove right home. Or better yet, spared ourselves the eight hour commute each way.

"So why didn't Tom choose to call us both later to ask for advice? I don't know. However, I suspect that the reason is because Tom feels more comfortable asking a man than he does asking a woman. Tom is almost clueless about the things he is buying. No, I didn't say that to him or imply that. If I did, then, of course it would be understandable why he was asking Jeff for advice. I was polite and considerate of Tom throughout the meeting. I asked about his family, listened to his news, paid attention to his artwork and complimented it, gave him information about the equipment he was thinking of buying and suggested alternatives. There was no point of rudeness or unpleasantness. But he, faced with several possibilities for obtaining information, chose only one of them.I could choose to be insulted but I feel more sorry for Tom than insulted." Tom is going to be lucky if he isn't harassed and stalked. God forbid that Tom made his own choice for whatever reason. I am glad to see Ginny practices this not only on her daughter but on strangers or acquaintances as well.

" I don't suffer migraine headaches any more. This alone may make being estranged worth it for me." Sounds like this is working out better for her. She is STILL griping and making lists on her website. Then of course she will turn around and say I am, but it's been less than a month for me, not four years!!! I am still illustrating to people that I care for why I want nothing to do with my mother. I can't help but use the resources that she put out to the public to help. You would think she would be happy that she is helping her child in a way, even though it may not be what she anticipated.I am surprised that she is using the "Italian" guilt thing here. There was also her heart rate which recently went high which she though was because of me (common symptom of a condition that she ahs). Oh yes, and those feelings of suicide, again originally expressed because of me, and then stated just a a symptom of depression. When a story changes beware! This is a typical tactic of my dad and step-mom too, the story changes to suit the purposes of the story teller, because they are manipulating or lying or both most likely.In past posts, she gloated that I might find the site and postings some day. She knew what she was doing, she knew the untruths she was publishing, she knew her fantasies for my life and values were negative, and she put it out there anyway. Now she's upset about that, and upset, that just like she expected, I am appalled by her behavior and thoughts. So now that's my fault, and I think I am perfect. No I am not, but I have also not been posting a blog for the last four years. She mentions some things that I did foolishly on my website that came down in like a day, as like the things she has had on her website for years!!! And continues to this day.Then she says I am unreasonable and inconsistent for wanting to vent and show people what I had to deal with 10 years ago. She seems pretty ashamed of her posts, and her excuse is "These weren't for Robin or her family's eyes". These things that are pretty damning, and this is the excuse she comes up with. Never mind that they are vile things to think or say. She thinks because I didn't know about them, that it's quite alright to tell complete strangers her lies (that's what they are, they aren't even twisted versions of the truth, because she knows the truth). Then I am evil for wanting nothing to do with her. Who would? Why would I? To please her? What enjoyment am I going to get? It's a relationship that will have one side, hers. Why would I want that again? There was no apology that she is insisting that she sent via e-mail. She says mail too, and I threw away quite a few letters in the last three years, so could be but I very much doubt it. I know for certain there were no e-mailed apologies except the one which starts this, that she hoped to get a response from.

"I am willing to take a lie detector test to stand behind everything that I have written that I have stated as fact. I won't pay for the test but if someone else wants to pay for the test, I will take it." Wow, almost as bizarre as the story Ginny told on her website about going to a doctor to prove to her mother that she wasn't crazy. I don't need anyone to take a lie detector test, just staying out of my life will be enough----um-----thanks.

"I do think she'd do well to see a therapist but she is too anti-therapy to go" Unless a therapist can wave a magic wand and make Ginny into not the controlling person she is who is interested in someone besides her self, I don't see the point. Much like I don't see the point in seeing a therapist about my dad's excuses for his wife's emotional and physical abuse of me. It's pretty clear to me, I don't need to put up with either behavior. One apologized in the same year as the incident, one "apologized" only in an attempt to get me to open up an e-mail 10 years after the incident. Guess which one is more impressive?The other may be just as insincere, only time will tell. There has been a start to one relationship (because whatever went on before was not a healthy relationship), and a final end to another.Any way, I think therapy for actual problems that are not clear or can not be solved by ones self is great, especially if it works. I did go to see a therapist once, when I was having a hard time as a the human resource sexual harassment officer, that had a case of rape on her hands by a male employee. The suggestion to take a half hour lunch break and walk in the park not so helpful. I don't need therapy to tell me that my parents are emotionally abusive or to sit there while one tells me her presents aren't good enough and the other recites reasons why it's okay for his wife to be abusive towards me. I got a good handle on that, thanks.The talk with my primary physician and the prescription offered for my bipolar condition during this stressful period of time, very helpful. I am sure there are better therapists out there than this one, and it was more helpful to know that sometimes life is a shit sandwich of which you are getting an especially large bite.That's how I feel about my parents unfortunately. Was every moment bad? No, but there have been enough bad ones. And sometimes, as in Ginny's case, enough IS enough. And since others have been directed here who are suffering from estrangement, well that's valuable info, especially when you are considering whether to open up that door (I am not any more).I can see by what my mother posts, and then her excuses for it. "Bad memory", by the way, best excuse she has out there. No, oh sorry, it seems I lied and made up fictitious stories for my readers about how her daughter wanted a big wedding and demanded that I pay half and be the photographer. Nope these can all be okay and explained away with "bad memory". Or perhaps, just changing the story to another version. Or calling a memory of a pool incident a lie. Or perhaps PAS (parental alienation syndrome) is to blame. This is all okay. Because if these all weren't okay, then she would have to face the person that she is. A person who is not nice, and prefers that than the excuse for of being mentally ill. Well, at least she takes responsibility for something.It's kind of like the end of The Shining, where the father manages to get control of his possessed body again, and tells his son to run. That's how I think of what my mother has put out there for the public---run away----run away---fast. And don't look back. Others have asked her to take it off, and I hope she never does. If I ever forget for an instant, I want to be able to pull it up. I want to see what I have seen. I want her weak excuses to still be up there, denying what is in plain English. Denying that she tried to sweep under the rug that the reason for me not speaking to Grandma Snickers was the continued abuse in the last letter, and not the fact that Grandma Snickers stood up for my mother. Something my mother knew full well. Denying that when she found out from Aunt Rae that I thought she was mentally ill, she posted on a public website that I felt nothing about the death of my grandfather or step-brother. It's all in black and white and on the same post. She is ashamed that I have seen, and she should be. Her only excuse has been "that post was not for Robin's or her family's eyes". That she told lies to complete strangers on a public board is supposed to be okay because of this. Complete strangers that tracked me down to ask me "how I could estrange from my mother just because I wanted a big wedding". (oh, and I don't have to explain this for anyone who actually knows me, there was no big wedding wanted---we wanted a small one that we planned ourselves, otherwise the family bickering and control issues would have been-------well out of control)It's a sickness of mine that I keep going back to that site. It's the obsessive ness that my mother thinks I feel to superior to have, but I do and at least admit it (I know it's there though, and I know when it's out of control, and I admit it). It's particularly disturbing when someone won't admit what they have put out there in black and white. And as of now, I am going to try to be resolute and not go back to that------sickness-------manipulation------control-------whatever it is that drives Ginny.

"Years ago when I first read about PAS, I sent a copy of a book on PAS to both my ex and my daughter. I doubt that either of them read it. My daughter probably threw the package away without even looking inside." I looked inside the package, threw it out, because it has nothing to do with the situation. It's a convenient excuse for my mother to use because she can't face what she has done herself or what she is (a selfish selfish and hurtful person).My mother once wrote me a letter in a "therapy style" way. She shares this in common with my dad who believes he is qualified to diagnose someone because he took a course in college. Well we all did. That doesn't make you a qualified therapist. There are actual licenses et that get handed out when you complete the educational process for that. The gaul of someone to analyze you and dispute what you are telling them your feelings are.

"She walks dogs for a living since last fall." I train dogs for a living. A point that is painfully obvious on my business website which she must have visited. And you know, my faulty financial skills and all have allowed me to add other aspects to the business and make a rather nice living. I am certain that I will eventually eclipse my salaries as comptrollers of the companies that valued my financial services. I am sure it's only my imagination that the "walks dogs for a living" is a slight.She assumes when we were younger we were having financial difficulties. No we were just smart with our money and didn't throw it away, especially later on with someone who would actively complain about your gifts!!!

"My daughter has replied to two of my posts, disagreeing with any idea that PAS was a factor in our estrangement. She finds it irritating that I might say that PAS has anything to do with our estrangement. She wants it to be all my fault and all my fault and not PAS. Okay. I am not going to disagree. PAS was not a factor. My daughter says that it was not a factor and that I am using it as some sort of easy escape of responsibility. Okay. Fine.What she would like is for me to agree with her opinion of me which is lower than the lowest point in the ocean. I am not going to do that.She has asked what it was that she said to me. She knows what she said to me. I know what she said to me at length. I consider these statements to be verbally abusive and identical to how she wrote to me in 1995 which made me sit up and take notice because I hadn't realized prior to that how negatively she felt about me. Currently, she appears to be annoyed because I did not provide a list of what she said to me when she asked as an allegedly anonymous poster what it was that she said. What she would like is for me to abase myself by providing her a forum for her low estimate of me. I am just not going to oblige her by doing this."." I was just curious if she could tell a complete stranger the truth about the situation. That it all started because she wanted presents of a certain quality and quantity. When it was explained we did the best we could with presents, and that was how it was, she continued to argue. When it was pointed out that she was not the perfect person and especially parent that she believed to be, it all blew up. In the short-term that was understandable, as it is shocking to have to face an honest truth about one's self.In the long-term she wouldn't stop arguing, she wouldn't agree to disagree, and she failed to take the break that she herself suggested and agreed to. She believes she had every right to make my life miserable about presents while my husband was in the hospital having six inches of his intestines removed, and then laid up recovering at home for the next month. Course this doesn't provide nearly the martyr story that she would like everyone to believe.Parents do not have the right to be abusive to you emotionally or physically just because they had you. This had been a very one sided relationship up until this point, Ginny is very selfish and self absorbed into herself.It is harsh, and I am sorry but the truth is harsh. I never received an apology that did not say "bite me" or "shit happens". She wanted me to grant her a visit, but she wanted to control the whole thing down to the menu (she wasn't even staying with us) that my husband should prepare for her.

"While she said at one point within the last week that she had thrown all emails from me away back in 1995, now she says that she has things that I wrote to her back then or shortly after. To her it seems important to say that she threw stuff that I wrote out and that she kept stuff I wrote. In the former the point seems to be that she threw it out and let it go long ago, unlike myself who is still talking about estrangement. In the latter the point seems to be that she kept it so that she could reread it and piss herself off all over again and prove to herself how much I am worthless." Luckily Ginny thinks I still have the letter, or it would have been another "lie" on my part. But no I didn't keep it, I still remember it quite well. I couldn't believe the nerve of that letter."She talks about ME invading her PRIVACY by visiting her website and she has gone and searched out my posts on a discussion board where I talked about estrangement thinking that I was pretty safe as far as expressing my thoughts and feelings with others there. What I said there was not meant for her eyes nor for her husband's eyes." She looked at my site and commented and posted it on her board. She also challenged me to find out she was really a good and loving person. My research found ----not surprisingly---- otherwise. She is still the same person that I knew before.


"I have listened to that and if you can think of a good response of what to say when someone says that they don't love you, don't care about you, don't find you endearing, and only thought of seeing you because they "should", I'd love to hear it. Would you turn the other cheek and let them stick a knife in that one too?" Yup, I did say that, and I meant it to. See my e-mail as to why. This is what happens when you emotionally abuse your daughter. Unlike what she thinks, I did not stop loving her before our initial blow up, but I was having an inkling that I was in a one sided relationship with a very selfish and self serving woman. The continued harassment and non-compliance of boundaries that were suggested and established by her furthered the erosion of any feelings that I had for her. The liberties that she took with contacting relatives, my dad, and my husband to further argue her indefensible case was astounding.Any way, think that's it. It's enough isn't it. This is just for me to get this out. It's been hard to have to explain to people, especially people who know and love me, why this relationship does not work. Not so hard to explain why the relationship with my grandmother on that side does not work, that is a no brainer, and much of my family has seen her at her best.I am not exactly proud for having posted these things again, but what the F, others continue to do hurtful things, and I should be able to expunge some of these demons myself, and have the same rights. My mother is not some innocent victim of some unknown reason of estrangement. That she paints herself as such is sickening. I don't know what she thinks she may have apologized for, as she represents to have done nothing wrong. So damn, I must have missed an apology that said the same old same old. What a shame.Her continued posting may be a manipulative gesture to get me to contact her. It won't work. I see her for what she is, and she is the same person I thought she was 10 years ago. It's not the old grudges I hold against her, it's the sick charges that I didn't care about my grandfather or stepbrother, that I broke ties with my grandmother for a silly reason, and her continued arguing that picks up right where we left off 10 years ago.

On Finding My Mothers Blog

I recently became aware that my mother was posting a blog out thereabout our estrangement. An relationship that I ended because shebecame emotionally abusive and unstable. It has been 10 years thusfar since I had spoken to her.I found the blog. I wanted to check it out, as I had beenentertaining ideas of reconciliation. I suspected that it was mymother that contacted me about it under an alias, and thought Imight be pleasantly surprised by what I saw. I wasn't. It was avery twisted version of reality, and quite shocking to me.Then I found her post on this site, where she claims I felt nothingfor a grandfather and step-brother who died. She said this aftersomeone else had told her I felt she was mentally ill, andemotionally abusive. She has a five year blog out there thattalks about our relationship from a very twisted version of reality.She also says that I broke off a relationship with her mother onlybecause she spoke on my mother's behalf. What she left out wasthat her mother was blaming me for my mother's impending suicidebecause I refused to take the abuse. My grandmother, by the way,would call up regularly when I was younger during asuicide "attempt". So there were a couple small details left out.First, I was in grief. I really really did not want to believe whatI suspected, what I believed was really really true. I have postedhere before, and someone had mentioned something aboutexaggeration. Believe you me, I had no idea how on target I was.Second, I experienced a relief from guilt. I was finally able tolet go of the guilt I had held for believing this step was necessaryfor the last 10 years, and can now go on guilt free for the rest ofmy life without ever contacting her again.I did contact because she still claims ignorance as to why we split. I had told her verbally, and in writing 10 years ago why.I felt that since in her blog she still expresses confusion, theleast I could do was explain it one last time.It's very sad, but a huge relief. I can go on now. I know for those of you that did not choose etrangement, this may be upsetting,and I apologize. Your situations are all different than mine, and no one should have to go through this abuse.Just know some people on this list that represent things one way,may skew them for their own purposes. That's the last thing onthis.

Replies to/from Tony

From Me To Tony--Response to below e-mail:


Tony

The door is closed, and there will be no more further correspondence. If Betty Anne shows up at events in the future that she is not invited to, she will receive direct correspondence from me so she knows she is not welcome. You are not in control of this. She is, she can stop showing up.I have only told you the truth, and I have every right to be angry at mistreatment. If you want to through phrases around like "dealing with your mother at her worst" feel free, it only lets me know that I made the right decision. Don't contact me again, I will no longer respond to your e-mails. Don't show up at personal grieving periods to further your own agenda, and you won't need to receive angry e-mails from either me or Robert. This thing that is so "blown out of proportion", is a ridicoulous statement considering both of your actions. Stay out of my life, it is better without you in it.

From Tony to Me:
I've waited until thing cooled down a bit to try to make some suggestions. Ifeel that the angry emails that you have sent do nothing but "throw gasolineon the fire." I still can't believe that this whole thing has been blown soout of proportion. It brings back painful memories of dealing with your mother at her worst.

Maybe we can agree on a cool down period in which:

1. You can send me all of the emails you want, about anything you want, but do not email Bettyann. She has no interest in receiving any correspondence from you.
2. You can send me anything through the mail as long as it is addressed tome, not me and DJ, etc. Anything that is sent with the sole purpose ofexclusion or hurt will be torn up and discarded. Your Christmas card,mailed from Portsmouth on Dec. 21, 2005 arrived on Jan. 7, 2006. This is anexample of what I mean
3. I am now and will continue to leave the door open to trying to repair ourrelationship. It takes two people to do this and I hope you will keep thedoor open too and consider this.

I love you and always will.

On How You Can End Up with Sucky Parents

I have a thought that came to me one day that gives me some peace.There are not nice people in the world, and that is a fact. Thesepeople are not prohibited from having children, and sometimesdespite the abuse (verbal or physical or emotional or all of theabove), they have pretty decent children. I explain to people whoask, that I am one of these children (nice). That I was anunfortunate product of some not so nice people.It can work anyway, nice parents have not so nice children. Thatis a fact as well. Daughter in laws, mother in laws, aunts,uncles, cousins, husbands et. There are not nice people in theworld, and they must know some nice ones!!! Much to theirmisfortune.I really feel bad for the grandchildren, stepchildren, et who aredon't know why they aren't liked by their stepmother/father orgrandfather/mother any more. That really sucks. How as a parentdo you explain that? It's easy enough to explain to your lifepartner, they are an adult and normally see what you see.

Update After Chrismas & Thanksgiving

For those who have forgotten or don't know the story, you can justsearch my name, and it will come up. I think it was posted inOctober or November under my real name. The one I am currentlyusing.So I heard back today from dad. He said he never received anyHoliday cards or messages to respond to. Well, he got an e-mail onThanksgiving that could not have been diverted by the step. And hewas sent a Christmas card, whether the step diverted it or daddoesn't want to admit he did get it. I don't know. They werealso sent a family calendar, sadly that probably went the way of theChristmas card. For all her fakeness, the step seems to beslipping up more and more lately, I wonder when the blow out infront of the whole family will occur? Soon enough I bet.So he said the reason for not sending anything was he was giving methe space I asked for (fine), but also that he received nocorrespondence. Well, we know one of those things is inaccurate.Now, him and I have talked about the step frequently and at lengthin the past. There is no new ground to cover, except that she isout of my life forever. I have made setting up a relationship withme at all to be a zero tolerance on emotional abuse from him whichis inclusive of not discussing the step. Especially since she isblaming the failing marriage (what she says) on me. Enough, I havebeen subject to enough with this person. I've been nice for 18years, I have heard all of this crap, and I don't need to hear anymore from her (although she is actually been told she is welcome todiscuss this with me, just not through my father) and I certaintlydon't need it from my father. That's the problem, she uses him asher megaphone when she feels she can't get to me, because I won'tlet her. BUT WORSE INFINETELY WORSE, he allows this abuse to go on.So he basically said he couldn't do that, because I wouldn't allowhim to not talk about my husband. To which I responded, my husbandhas never been abusive to you, and if he had, not only would I haveput a stop to it immediately, but I would not require you to bebothered by this ever, never mind sitting through 18 years of this.So I then told him, he had given me his answer. I thanked him forrespecting my space in the interim, and I said goodbye.Actually, not a bad place for me to be right now. I really don'tneed to waste anymore time on this relationship. I can even see byhis e-mail, that he would be expecting me to do MORE for him, whilehe would continue to do the nothing he always has for me.Sorry a little bitter there, guess I am not in as good a place as Icould have hoped.It will come though, I know it will come. No big loss really, it'sreally the loss of something that was never there but alwaysbfantisized about.

E-Mails and Responses to/from Tony

From Me to Tony in Response to Below:

You were sent both a Thanksgiving e-mail and Christmas card. It really doesn't matter though, just wanted to see why. I would be really curious as to what happened to it, it would be the only Christmas card that did not make it to it's destination. I am not talking about Betty Anne, again, other than the hurt that she has caused me. That's final. I am sorry.Robert has done nothing to damage or abuse you. If he had, I would definately (first of all kill him) and second of all not require you to be bothered by that. I do appreciate your respecting my wishes and boundaries. It would be nice if you could drop a line to Robert yourself for your well wishes. He has done many nice things in the past and present for you.Thank you for your reply, I have my answer. You have yours as well.Robin

Response to below from Dad to Me:

Dear Robin,

First, please tell Robert how sorry I am for what is happening with his mother. That should be the first priority for both of you and I don't want interfere with that process in any way. You need to be there for Robert, I know from experience he will need you.The reason that you haven't heard from me is that I was respecting your wish, as I understood it, "for putting you (me) off for a period of time, but it is something I (you) have to do."

Also, you mention "reciprocal correspondence during the holidays", I never got any correspondence to reply to. I very much want to have a relationship with my daughter, but not one with strings attached. We could no more have a relationship together and never talk about Robert, than we can and not talk about what happen between you and Bettyann. Bettyann is my wife and I love her just as you love Robert. They are part of our lives and we are who we are, in part, because of our relationship to our spouses. I don't expect that you will ever have a relationship with Bettyann or her with you. But if you and I are to have a relationship it needs to be honest and open, no subjects or issues forbidden. That's what I want.

I respect you and your feeling more than you know. But, I have my needs and feelings too. I want to talk with you about what has happen to us, not just about Bettyann, but going all the way back to the beginning. Yes it will be painful, yes it will hurt, but at least it will be real. What we are doing now is not real, what you propose is not real. I'm willing to compromise, I hope you are, but that is up to you.Please think about it for a while, but right now you need to think about Robert first.

Love, Dad

Orginal E-mail from Me to Tony in this thread:

Robert's mother has slipped into a comma. We are probably going to be back and forth to Worcester. However, due to the fact there has been no reciprocal correspondence during the holidays, I am wondering what this means? Have you changed your mind, because if you have you could save me a lot of time and trouble by telling me that?

I am not trying to be difficult here, just trying to be honest, and get an honest response in return. A future relationship is not going back to it's present state. I don't care whether it's closer or just superficial, but there is going to be a zero tolerance policy for what I consider emotional abuse from you. You will not bring up issues about your wife to me, if this relationship continues. That is my boundary, it is not emotional blackmail. I have put up with her for eighteen years giving her the benefit of the doubt, and that is over forever. Just stating this so there is no confusion going forward. That's the way it is, take it or leave it.

So let me know whether you want to get together and I will make plans. Or not, and I will happily continue on with my life.

Robin